Luke (ROTJ) vs. Ben Skywalker

How's Ben matching up to his dear old dad when dad was his age?

Poorly.

Ben should win.

Not convinced he can match Luke in any combative area, tbh.

Luke

Yeah, Luke.

....well, that doesn't speak well of Luke's training, since he's been personally training his son ever since Jacen turned evil. Doesn't speak well of Jacen's training program either.

And Ben had a lot more training then ROTJ Luke ever had.

Originally posted by Angelalex242

And Ben had a lot more training then ROTJ Luke ever had.

And his showings are still relatively unimpressive. Ben might combatively be the weakest Skywalker, tbh.

All I can say is Luke must be a lousy ass trainer, for all that he's a rank 10 everything himself. I mean, seriously, if he can't train his son to beat his past self up, what does he think he's doing?

He certainly has all the motivation in the world to train Ben to be the best he can be, as Luke sure as HELL does not want to outlive his son. Outliving Mara nearly destroyed him by itself.

Or Luke is just naturally better than his son...?

Different people train at different paces. This speaks far more to the fact that Luke was a prodigy rather than any lack in his ability to train. Luke, after all, trained many incredibly powerful Jedi.

Luke curbstomps poor little Ben.

Beating Vader automatically makes him able to stomp Ben.

Don't get me wrong, Ben's no slouch, but he'e never even come close to injuring Luke, except maybe before he became a Jedi.

Well...Luke didn't so much overpower Vader as save his soul and render him Anakin once more. The 2nd Death Star duel....one cannot say Vader was trying. The Vader that got overpowered was about 90 percent redeemed already and not really giving it his all. If we could see under his mask, I'd question if his eyes were even still yellow at the point his hand got sliced off.

Then again, redeeming his father is far more awesome a feat then killing him ever could've been.

Which, of course, was George Lucas's point in that fight.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
One cannot say Vader was trying.

RotJ novel disagrees with you, tbh.

The Vader that got overpowered was about 90 percent redeemed already

More like 10%.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Well...Luke didn't so much overpower Vader as save his soul and render him Anakin once more. The 2nd Death Star duel....one cannot say Vader was trying. The Vader that got overpowered was about 90 percent redeemed already and not really giving it his all.

Then again, redeeming his father is far more awesome a feat then killing him ever could've been.

Which, of course, was George Lucas's point in that fight.

Lol, no, Luke got pissed and kicked Vader's ass in a legit fight, Vader was not holding back, as believable as it seemed he was. He was trying to kill Luke, he almost killed him last time they fought.

Pretty sure both of you are equally wrong, tbh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Pretty sure both of you are equally wrong, tbh.

Redemption has to have a certain gradualness to it. The Vader that Luke surrenders to is 10% redeemed, and thus saying things like 'It's too late for me, son...' By the time he senses a sister, it's something like the half way point. The inverse Dun Moch has been doing a number on him all the time. When his hand is sliced off it's about 90. Then, as he watches Sidious do his lightning torture, his redemption finishes, and overboard Sidious goes. Thus, we see clear blue eyes on Anakin's face when the mask is removed.

The man who lived in darkness saw a great light that was his son...and of a father's love was begotten salvation.

...yes, I phrased it like that because it's Christmas 😛

Is it just me or did Anakin look really chubby after Luke took the mask off?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
When is it shown that Vader held back even slightly?

It's not that he was holding back, but rather that he didn't really desire to kill Luke. He was trying to defeat him, though, and the RotJ novel depicts him as embarrassed and pissed that the boy was pushing him back in front of the Emperor.

It should be noted though, that while he didn't want to kill Luke, it was clearly noted that he was willing* to kill him.