Originally posted by AncientPower
I thought this was novel Vitiate and Revan, if this is TOR Revan then Vader has someone on team 2 besides Vitiate to be strongly concerned about. Starkiller and Sidious are still equal or stronger(respectively) than anyone on team 2 however.
On the other hand, Sidious can take down either opponent from team 1.
Fights involving Starkiller/Vader vs. Revan/Malgus are all very close IMHO, but I give the edge to the former duo.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Any version of Sidious, from ROTS on up, is noticeably greater than Vitiate. He's a more powerful force user and a far greater warrior. Better feats, accolades, etc. DE Sidious can destroy starfleets and kill entire worlds with a single force attack, that requires him a mere thought. The DE endnotes states that Sidious is a dark side nexus powerful enough to rip apart the fabric of space/time, which is a quote that's quite literal, and not hyperbolic. Vitiate doesn't come close in power, nor does any hyperbolic quote regarding his power beat that.
I disagree on ROTS Sidious being stronger than Vitiate in the force. As an all out warrior though, he is superior like you said. DE Sidious is truly as powerful as you depict him here and his feats/accolades are superior than Vitiate's but why do you think Vitiate's accolades are hyperbolic?
He may not have many battle showings but that's due to his position in the EU. Sidious was a member of RoT. He was expected to be the full package as he had to be a scholar, a warrior, a sorcerer and a cunning puppet master at the same time which helped him become the ultimate sith. As much as he liked to use others to do his work for him, Sidious ultimately had to get involved in events directly as a force user. Vitiate, on the other hand had thousands of force users serving him and he ruled them in seclusion. These circumstances made Vitiate less of a warrior and less interested in melee combat as he didnt believe he would need it. Sidious looked down upon lightsaber usage too but the difference is, he needed it no matter how powerful he was. I believe Sidious wouldn't be this good with the saber if he was born in TOR era.
Also, due to the circumstances he was in, Vitiate also didnt find himself in situations were he had to display his full raw power as almost no one could match him including HoT because that encounter doesn't count for obvious reasons. We only know that whether it is the Dread Masters or powerful jedi strike teams or even entire dark councils, Vitiate managed to stand tall above all in such competitive era for 1400 years.
As for the other four, they are all pretty close, IMO. Though SK is the most powerful based on feats, followed by Vader. And I've been hearing about some ridiculous force feats from Vader, such as killing groups of force users with single force attacks (wish I knew the sources, but haven't had much time to research).
SWTOR Revan is the strongest here imo but I can't avoid being biased when it comes to StarKiller. This is a lesser version of Revan too which doesn't help team 2.
Other than Ant (who thinks Revan is on par with Yoda), LeGenD (who thinks Vitiate is on par with the One's of Mortis), and psmith (who's only here to lie about his life to try to impress people he doesn't know and who don't care), I'd like to for someone to point out if there is anything wrong with my post. I'm all ears.
I personally disagree with a few minor details. However, on 1vs1, ROTS Sidious is a more lethal character than any version of Vitiate so far and this isnt Vitiate's most powerful incarnation. Revan and Malgus won't be in any position to assist him and so team 1 should win here.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not remotely as impressive as being infinitely more powerful then something that can turn Meetra and Scourge to ash, or obliterate Nyriss' barrier and destroy her. Sorry.
Given that the former are unimpressive and the latter only appears impressive due to her ability to dominate the former, I'm unimpressed. Sidious wins. Sorry. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even ROTS!Sidious has the feats and accolades to edge out Revan!Vitiate in the Force. Not saying it's a stomp, but the advantage is there.
Oh I wasn't thinking of the Novel Vitiate there. It depends on how much you choose to acknowledge the dark council purges for Vitiate's feats imo.
Even though this isn't SWTOR Vitiate, I'm not as sure as you are about ROTS Sidious' superiority in the force. Mainly due to 2 reasons:
1) I don't believe any sith/jedi is powerful enough to casually one-shot an entire dark council but people underestimate Vitiate via prep factor a bit too much. Prep doesn't turn every top tier into a being that powerful so the council purges hint Vitiate's shocking level of power.
2) Vitiate was an unusually prodigious force user. He dedicated himself to studying the force in order to obtain even more power than he naturally gained(which was most likely IMMENSE already) which led him to the Natemha ritual. As you know, he spent a millennia after that doing almost nothing but studying the force ever further, participating in rituals that amped his power and constantly drained servants that dedicated their lives to boost his power. This is a crucial detail because you too have admitted that even a great being like Sidious wasn't able to grow stronger a lot during PT cause he had to focus on other occupations. The novel Vitiate comes after all that so there is no reason to doubt his position as a challenger against ROTS Sidious here. At least in the force.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that the former are unimpressive and the latter only appears impressive due to her ability to dominate the former, I'm unimpressed. Sidious wins. Sorry. 👆
How is it unimpressive? The ability to overpower and incinerate two beings of their power is very impressive.
...Neph, use your head. facepalm
Originally posted by Sinious
1) I don't believe any sith/jedi is powerful enough to casually one-shot an entire dark council but people underestimate Vitiate via prep factor a bit too much. Prep doesn't turn every top tier into a being that powerful so the council purges hint Vitiate's shocking level of power.
We've seen/read about Force adepts wielding comically disproportionate power via ritual and/or Force nexus. What's more, you're creating a false dilemma. Vitiate does wield "a shocking level of power." I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean he's more powerful than Sidious, who also wields a "shocking level of power."
Originally posted by Sinious
2) Vitiate was an unusually prodigious force user.
Agreed. But Sidious isn't?
Originally posted by Sinious
He dedicated himself to studying the force in order to obtain even more power than he naturally gained(which was most likely IMMENSE already) which led him to the Natemha ritual. As you know, he spent a millennia after that doing almost nothing but studying the force ever further, participating in rituals that amped his power and constantly drained servants that dedicated their lives to boost his power. This is a crucial detail because you too have admitted that even a great being like Sidious wasn't able to grow stronger a lot during PT cause he had to focus on other occupations. The novel Vitiate comes after all that so there is no reason to doubt his position as a challenger against ROTS Sidious here. At least in the force.
The problem that even Neph, one of Vitiate's biggest fanboys, acknowledged is that Vitiate's feats and accolades really don't align with his origins. Meanwhile, Sidious's accolades and feats are actually disproportionately higher than his origins. Sidious has more to his name after 90+ years than Vitiate does in 1400+ and rituals to enhance his power. Both are prodigies, but Sidious is demonstrably much more so.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I suggest you use yours. Even if we limit Meetra and Scourge's power, being able to overpower the defenses of (at worst) 2 high-level Jedi Masters and still have enough power to incinerate (burn to ash) them is extremely impressive.
Me
...Neph, use your head. facepalm
Nephthys
Except the Son.And
NihilusAbeloth.
👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
We've seen/read about Force adepts wielding comically disproportionate power via ritual and/or Force nexus.
Then why don't every dark sider constantly use it before combat to defeat their enemies that they normally can't? Like Malgus against the protags or Darth Maul against Kenobi and Jinn etc. There are many examples where a force adept has the chance to prepare for their battles yet doesn't bother at all.
What's more, you're creating a false dilemma. Vitiate does wield "a shocking level of power." I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean he's more powerful than Sidious, who also wields a "shocking level of power."Agreed. But Sidious isn't?
Not denying any of that.
The problem that even Neph, one of Vitiate's biggest fanboys, acknowledged is that Vitiate's feats and accolades really don't align with his origins.
How so? We know how powerful Meetra and Scourge are and so we know how powerful Nyriss is too which of course allows us to understand how freaking powerful Vitiate is based on his FLS domination of Revan.
Meanwhile, Sidious's accolades and feats are actually disproportionately higher than his origins. Sidious has more to his name after 90+ years than Vitiate does in 1400+ and rituals to enhance his power. Both are prodigies, but Sidious is demonstrably much more so.
We're not comparing their peak versions though. Besides, I'm not questioning Sidious' superiority in this regard.
Originally posted by Sinious
Then why don't every dark sider constantly use it before combat to defeat their enemies that they normally can't? Like Malgus against the protags or Darth Maul against Kenobi and Jinn etc. There are many examples where a force adept has the chance to prepare for their battles yet doesn't bother at all.
You're dealing with a mass franchise characterized with hilarious inconsistency, no different from the comic book world {though not quite as bad}. The fact of the matter is, though, disproportionate feats from Force users via prep/nexus is nothing new.
Originally posted by Sinious
Not denying any of that.
Then why bring it up?
Originally posted by Sinious
How so? We know how powerful Meetra and Scourge are and so we know how powerful Nyriss is too which of course allows us to understand how freaking powerful Vitiate is based on his FLS domination of Revan.
Because as powerful as that is, that's still not reflective of a super-prodigy who drained 8 thousand Sith Lords and studied the dark side for more than a millennium.
Originally posted by Sinious
We're not comparing their peak versions though. Besides, I'm not questioning Sidious' superiority in this regard.
No, but appealing to Vitiate's prodigious abilities vis a vis Sidious is moot when Sidious is demonstrably the superior prodigy.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're dealing with a mass franchise characterized with hilarious inconsistency, no different from the comic book world {though not quite as bad}. The fact of the matter is, though, disproportionate feats from Force users via prep/nexus is nothing new.
And so unless the person is stated to have prep to boost his power, I don't think its fair to assume they had prep or at least needed it immensely as a certainty like its proven by a canon source.
Then why bring it up?
Because YOLO.
No, I brought it up to explain how insanely impressive Vitiate's background is but as you have stated below, its kinda too much for any sith which is why I questioned Sidious' superiority over him a couple months ago in the first place. I guess Sidious is simply that good which is a huge turn on for me btw.
Because as powerful as that is, that's still not reflective of a super-prodigy who drained 8 thousand Sith Lords and studied the dark side for more than a millennium.
Fair enough.
No, but appealing to Vitiate's prodigious abilities vis a vis Sidious is moot when Sidious is demonstrably the superior prodigy.
Which is what I said. Read above to see why I mentioned Vitiate's background.
Originally posted by Sinious
And so unless the person is stated to have prep to boost his power, I don't think its fair to assume they had prep or at least needed it immensely as a certainty like its proven by a canon source.
It's absolutely fair to assume as much when there is no evidence to suggest that the character could replicate the results at whim and on neutral ground or when the feat itself is wildly inconsistent with the character's other feats.
That's been the default position by any reasonable debater in these parts for years and it doesn't matter what character's involved. I apply the same exacting standards for Sidious.
My position is much more reasonable than the opposite. And it's universally applied.
Originally posted by Sinious
Because YOLO.No, I brought it up to explain how insanely impressive Vitiate's background is but as you have stated below, its kinda too much for any sith which is why I questioned Sidious' superiority over him a couple months ago in the first place. I guess Sidious is simply that good which is a huge turn on for me btw.
👆
I'm pleased. His Imperial Majesty's dominance is indeed a natural aphrodisiac.
Originally posted by Sinious
Fair enough.
👆
Originally posted by Sinious
Which is what I said. Read above to see why I mentioned Vitiate's background.
My point is that, when comparing Sidious to Vitiate, it's a moot point to reference Vitiate's background as a prodigy. He is indeed. But Sidious is demonstrably more so, achieving comparable feats and accolades at the very least without having to leech the power of thousands of Sith Lords and studying the Force for a fraction of the time.