Originally posted by deathslash
he tussles with danny on a regular basis, displayed the ability to sap people's life forces in Danny's newest book, has incredible pain tolerance, and his striking power and skill are enough to reasonably put him above shiva.
This is just a HTH battle. Shiva is better than Batman, Richard, and pretty much anyone not named Val in the DCU. I think she can compete.
Originally posted by Golgo13Batman isn't the end all, be all martial artist though. If there's a credible source that shows that she's a better martial artist that Richard Dragon, I'd like to see it (because this is the first time I've heard of it). She's been knocked out by both batman and talia al ghul before, and had a hard enough time with conner hawk as well to support my belief that serpent can beat her.
This is just a HTH battle. Shiva is better than Batman, Richard, and pretty much anyone not named Val in the DCU. I think she can compete.
Originally posted by deathslashConnor Hawke was also able to stalemate Cassandra Cain while holding back so he's no slouch
Batman isn't the end all, be all martial artist though. If there's a credible source that shows that she's a better martial artist that Richard Dragon, I'd like to see it (because this is the first time I've heard of it). She's been knocked out by both batman and talia al ghul before, and had a hard enough time with conner hawk as well to support my belief that serpent can beat her.
Still Steel Serpent wins as most if not all the Immortal Weapons would since they have ridiculous chi based abilities that put them above most human martial artist
Steel Serpent vs someone like Michael Lane would of been a better match IMO
Originally posted by deathslash
Batman isn't the end all, be all martial artist though. If there's a credible source that shows that she's a better martial artist that Richard Dragon, I'd like to see it (because this is the first time I've heard of it). She's been knocked out by both batman and talia al ghul before, and had a hard enough time with conner hawk as well to support my belief that serpent can beat her.
Batman stalemated 3boot Karate Kid in the air. Think about that for a second. 😉
Originally posted by Golgo13Without chi it's hard to say since the Immortal Weapons all fought with super natural abilities like being able to absorb Danny's chi to have a gauge on their raw hand to hand abilities. I could say Shiva simply because she has more showings of raw H2H skill without any augmentation, unless there are some feats to support the Immortal Weapons raw hand to hand ability.
Who do you think wins between Davos and Shiva? Purely a HTH match?
Originally posted by Golgo13PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.
Batman stalemated 3boot Karate Kid in the air. Think about that for a second. 😉
Originally posted by deathslash
PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.
Yep.
And conversely, Iron Fist being able to legit hang with Spidey level speed/agility is pretty well established.
While you can't use ABC logic and assume Davos is the same, his fight with Spidey holds more credibility then Bats stalemating Val because the fact he's basically the reverse Iron Fist..
Originally posted by deathslash
PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.
I love Val, but I wouldn't say he's hundreds of leagues above him. When Batman first met Val, he was considered an 8-10 (Some scale he was reading on a computer), while Val was a 12 or something. Even then, he still hanged with Karate Kid, despite Val taking his utility belt. This was basically classic Val.
Then he met 3boot Val and stalemated him in an air fight. Remember, 3boot Val isn't on the same level as classic.
Originally posted by Golgo13I dunno, Geoff Johns has pretty much confirmed that the Legion's pre crisis history is canon, they reference the Great Darkness Saga several times. It just lacks the cartoonish presence that comics in the 60's and 70's had.
I love Val, but I wouldn't say he's hundreds of leagues above him. When Batman first met Val, he was considered an 8-10 (Some scale he was reading on a computer), while Val was a 12 or something. Even then, he still hanged with Karate Kid, despite Val taking his utility belt. This was basically classic Val.Then he met 3boot Val and stalemated him in an air fight. Remember, 3boot Val isn't on the same level as classic.
Originally posted by deathslash
PIS. everyone and their mother knows that in a non biased fight, batman shouldn't last more than half a second against Val. The fact is that DC hates to show one of their biggest stars in an unflattering light, so they make him do much better against a character that is hundreds of leagues above him.
He's the goddamned Batman, after all.
The Batman fights were definite PIS, and they were still better showings for Val then the post crisis team ups, when Val struggled with common street thugs in their teamups..
