So you guys think Ancient Sith are above the Sith Triumvirate?

After thinking about Traya's statement of how Nihilus near end of the game is just getting near to some of the Ancient Sith's power, you guys think Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and finally Kun are above him? While she did say that in the Dark side path, I heard as long as it doesn't contradict the main story info like that is totally legitimate. And hey the Ancient Sith know of Nihilus's technique and even some Sith in Vitiate's empire knows it besides Vitiate himself. Just my two cents.

Have a youtube video or screen shot with the quote?

As far as being in the dark side route?

So long as the information isn't contradicted by the canon route, nothing stands to reason events were altered in a manner that she still wouldn't believe that

This kind of goes for all video games though, not just star wars

Not that most fans actually know how to deal with video games for god knows what reasons :lmao

Avellone said she was spot on about Hord, stands to reason she'd probably be right about Nihilus too

She has the psychometric/clairvoyant power to glean that kind of information if she really wanted to and all

That said, you'll probably see resistance to them playing connect the dots here

Gotta preserve that omnipotent gigadrain and all~

Originally posted by The Merchant
After thinking about Traya's statement of how Nihilus near end of the game is just getting near to some of the Ancient Sith's power, you guys think Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and finally Kun are above him? While she did say that in the Dark side path, I heard as long as it doesn't contradict the main story info like that is totally legitimate. And hey the Ancient Sith know of Nihilus's technique and even some Sith in Vitiate's empire knows it besides Vitiate himself. Just my two cents.

YouTube video

Skip to 3:50.

Simple, she is wrong. Also from a non-canon scene so no, not a legitimate source of info.

How is she wrong though? I could concede to that point of it being non-canon though.

Because no ancient Sith aside from perhaps Vitiate have shown anything approaching Nihilus in power.

Kun with his Dark Reaper? Although I guess that doesn't count as personal power. But Traya did say the Sith didn't use the technique because it'll turn them into Nihilus.

Lucia's and Haru's fathers in RAVE had ass for feats too

They're apparently top tiers supported by word of god or some shit

Thus they benefit from retroactive powerscaling

Sure, you're free to deny that, but vs debating is way too subjective to really say how to go about it is correct or not.

Granted, Kreia's technically not word of god, but as with the Hord scene, it could actually be inferred Avellone was conveying that, yes, she knows what she's talking about

As for the canonicity of the scene?

What about Nihilus has altered significantly between the Dark and Light paths, where does his history deviate with your non-canon choices that end up with him coming out as a completely different entity in the dark side route as opposed to in the light side?

You all seem to have a difficulty understanding "canon" is in reference to events that happened. While an event doesn't need to occur, the information given in a non-canon event can be valid information unless contradicted

Why is this not intuitive for Star Wars exactly?

See that's what my point was. Why does the info get disregarded just because the path was in the Dark-side path? Even the Light-side path Traya mentions how God-like the Ancient Sith were and how they knew of the technique as well, just never abused it to the point of Nihilus's usage of it.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Granted, Kreia's technically not word of god, but as with the Hord scene, it could actually be inferred Avellone was conveying that, yes, she knows what she's talking about

That was certainly Avellone's intention and he intended to build the third game around it. However, that never happened and, from what we've seen, Kreia is wrong. Naga and Ludo, for example, don't display nearly the power of Nihilus.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
As for the canonicity of the scene?

What about Nihilus has altered significantly between the Dark and Light paths, where does his history deviate with your non-canon choices that end up with him coming out as a completely different entity in the dark side route as opposed to in the light side?

You all seem to have a difficulty understanding "canon" is in reference to events that happened. While an event doesn't need to occur, the information given in a non-canon event can be valid information unless contradicted

Why is this not intuitive for Star Wars exactly?

It's not a canon scene and therefore not a canon source. Really, I see it as no different then information taken from a non-canon book.

Originally posted by ares834
That was certainly Avellone's intention and he intended to build the third game around it. However, that never happened and, from what we've seen, Kreia is wrong. Naga and Ludo, for example, don't display nearly the power of Nihilus.

Like I said, this isn't exactly the only series where characters that have shit feats get powerscaled to better due to some accolade or another.

You're free to ignore it, vs debating is fluid as hell. While you can definitely say their are wrong ways to do it, I can say for sure there is no definite way to do it right.

It's not a canon scene and therefore not a canon source. Really, I see it as no different then information taken from a non-canon book.

You don't play many video games, do you? :hmm

Ever heard of Bayonetta?

Final boss of the first one gets defeated by being chucked into the Sun.

The non-canon game over?

While you're attempting to hurl it into the Sun, it accidentally rams into a planet, destroying it.

This event isn't canon, but it illustrates the power of whatever hurls the final boss into the Sun pretty clearly as far as the feat goes.

Nothing between the non-canon events and canon events is altered, so it's pretty easy to infer the non-canon planetary destruction factually represents the power of the canon event. Had the game over ending some how diverged from the canon in some fashion (like somehow getting a power up that doesn't happen in canon), the non canon game over doesn't fly as being an accurate portrayal.

The information that's programmed into the game, so long as it's not contradicted, stands to be held as factually correct.

If he didn't actually destroy a planet then, no I'd disagree and say the attack doesn't have that much power. Never played Bayonetta but I certainly wouldn't say Sephiroth from FF7 is a solar system buster because of his supernova animation... If it didn't happen then it didn't happen.

Basically, I completely disagree.

And what exactly supports your logic?

The event is one and the same, nothing is altered between the two sans the final outcome

One is failure where he hits a planet and recovers, the other is canon where he doesn't hit a planet and flies into the sun

Two outcomes from the same attack

Your Sephiroth example?

Flawed, word of god supports the limit in numerous secondary canon sources (along with presenting ways to infer how and why it can repeat through the confirmation that alternative dimensions exist in game via summon), it just happens that as far as the series is concerned, the feat is an outlier (the **** do you want Meteor for jackass, right?)

My logic is that if it didn't happen it didn't happen. Pretty straight forward.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Flawed, word of god supports the limit in numerous secondary canon sources (along with presenting ways to infer how and why it can repeat through the confirmation that alternative dimensions exist in game via summon), it just happens that as far as the series is concerned, the feat is an outlier (the **** do you want Meteor for jackass, right?)

And what we have concerning the ancient Sith supports the fact that they aren't as Nihilus's level so...

It's only the game over that didn't happen

The event that led to the boss getting thrown towards the Sun did in both the canon and game over scenario though

There is no difference in how it occurred other than the trjectory of the Final Boss as a projectile

Yet you assume somehow the energy, which was placed into the system before either collision occurred at the throw... is lesser in the canon version solely for the fact the trajectory was right on target

I honestly don't follow you

Your focus is the effect when you need to look at the cause and see if the difference between the two effects was due to some alteration of the cause

As for your edit?

That's just going to end up being difference of opinion based on how to conduct this hobby. I see it more as my RAVE example. You clearly see it as otherwise. That's fair enough there.

Well, no I don't think it is lesser because knocking someone all the way to the sun in a few seconds is presumably going to take more energy then to destroy a planet. However, I wouldn't use it as evidence as it's a "what if" and non-canon. It's simple really. Now if you want to argue author's intent that's fair and I may be inclined to agree in Bayonetta's case. However, in KotOR's case Avellone's intent isn't the reality anymore.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Originally posted by ares834
Well, no I don't think it is lesser because knocking someone all the way to the sun in a few seconds is presumably going to take more energy then to destroy a planet.

Given the events occurring at speeds faster than light?

You can't really quantify it with out ignoring relativistic effects

Treating it with Newtonian properties as far as KE is concerned will probably come out to values well below most planetary GBEs without being millions of times lightspeed :hmm

That's an entirely different issue though on whether doing that is something a given board allows for debate purposes though

And really off topic :lmao

However, I wouldn't use it as evidence as it's a "what if" and non-canon.

I know it's non-canon and technically a "what if"

I seem to be failing at conveying what exactly about my argument you need to focus on :hmm

Sorry about that, I'm shit with words and often seem to need multiple posts to actually convey what I want

None of that is my actual point

Its a matter of cause and effect. Your main focus seems to be the different outcomes, the effects. Its the point of origin, where in both canon and non-canon outcomes is the same, the cause, that you need to focus on and question.

Now if you want to argue author's intent that's fair and I may be inclined to agree in Bayonetta's case. However, in KotOR's case Avellone's intent isn't the reality anymore.

I get that

This just kind of ends up being a difference in conduct though

I fully understand where you're coming from there, and that point in itself is valid

It's just that it's not the only way to tackle this hobby

Anyway, this has been more fun debating than I've had over in the OBD in a while

Granted, kind of setting the bar low when debate's kind of dead, but I'll take what I can get :maybe

Later anyway. I think I'll try sleeping or something now :hmm

Originally posted by The Merchant
After thinking about Traya's statement of how Nihilus near end of the game is just getting near to some of the Ancient Sith's power, you guys think Sadow, Ragnos, Hord and finally Kun are above him? While she did say that in the Dark side path, I heard as long as it doesn't contradict the main story info like that is totally legitimate. And hey the Ancient Sith know of Nihilus's technique and even some Sith in Vitiate's empire knows it besides Vitiate himself. Just my two cents.

The old old one? Adendu? Adas? Dathka Graush?
Because Korriban had 8 moons.... And there is a legend where one sith lord explose this moon with his TK to show than he was a god of the appocalypse... And that's why there is an asteroid belt in the ToR cinematic....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsKxJConQjE

Tulak hord was abad ass too...