ROTS Sidious/Dooku vs. Kenobi/Windu/Vader/Grievous

Originally posted by McP
Kenobi and Grievous are not Kolar, Fisto or Tiin. They could be remove by the Force attacks easily, but blitzed? I'm not so sure.

And what defense will Kenobi have against Sidious' lightning? Same with Grievous. If it can catch Yoda of all people off guard and KO him, Grievous and Kenobi do not have a chance in hell.

I doubt, that Sidious could do that to Dooku whenever he want, as I doubt, that Dooku raised his guard in the Force during speaking to his master.
Choke or not, it's part of TK. If Dooku's guard would be that easily to break for Sidious, Yoda should be able to break it as easily as well. But he couldn't.

Even if he can't choke him out he most certainly can send him packing with the force. And Yoda never tried to use the force offensively against Dooku. All he did was knock all of his attacks aside. The only time in that fight Yoda started to get offensive with his saber Dooku retreated.

...that Windu wont be able to charge at Sidious the way he needs to. At the beggining of their fight in ROTS, Windu could do nothing. During those few seconds after Fisto's death, he was almost running from Sidious.

Sidious is faster, more agressive and the first move is his.

If the team 2 will decide to split it to two fights 2v1, then they are doomed. Dooku should be able to hold his own for a while against Mace and Kenobi, while Sidious would crush Vader and Grievous.

I think, that their best chances are:
Mace vs Dooku and Vader, Kenobi and Grievous vs Sidious. Unlike Mace, Vader might be able to prevent Sidious from removing Kenobi and Grievous from the fight.

Nah if Team 2 does Mace vs. Dooku and the trio vs. Sidious. Sidious will Kenobi and Grievous and then own Vader ala saber/ lightning combo.

Also Mace vs. Dooku can go either way.

How the hell can Windu vs a Dooku go "either way"? Windu's Vaapad is going to loop Dooku's darkness just as it did Sidious's. The difference is Dooku is weaker and won't push vaapad to it's very limits.

Actually...Dooku is too cool and calculated for Vapaad to do much. Dooku and Vader are probably the worst matches for Mace, because their rage is at a minimum. The more rage and hate a Sith has, the more Mace can feed on.

Vaapad reflects back darkness not merely rage.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."

So no.

Of course one could argue that Vaapad would only amp him to Dooku's level.

Originally posted by ares834
Vaapad reflects back darkness not merely rage.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."

So no.

Of course one could argue that Vaapad would only amp him to Dooku's level.

Yes but for one DOOKU knows mace so he knows vaapad and and is calm cool and collected and also can block out Windu vaapad with is qua tec meditation and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work as well as it did against Sidious and even then he had a huge amp so I beleive that dooku would win since vaapad stokes are wild and Makashi stabs are precise and DOOKU is said to be windus equal or superior so I mean it could go either way but I would give the win to dooku

...except, Darkness IS Rage and Hate, mostly. That's what the dark side is made of.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
...except, Darkness IS Rage and Hate, mostly. That's what the dark side is made of.

And Dooku uses the dark side so...

Originally posted by ares834
And Dooku uses the dark side so...

Dooku could divert it because vaapad receives its energy from rage and DOOKU is calm when he fighters and so Windu wouldn't have that big of an amp and plus DOOKU is said to be better than windu at least be toe to toe with him and if dooku can dodge and block the broad strokes of vaapad then he could get windu with a precise stab watch Antoine balade dooku vs windu on YouTube and it will be explained

I posted an excerpt that directly states Vaapad channels darkness not merely rage. So no.

Originally posted by ares834
How the hell can Windu vs a Dooku go "either way"? Windu's Vaapad is going to loop Dooku's darkness just as it did Sidious's. The difference is Dooku is weaker and won't push vaapad to it's very limits.

"The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light."

Dooku has beaten Windu.

"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."

Sure. But now Windu can reflect Dooku's power back upon him so it's kinda a moot point. Sidious, certainly, appears to be a superior duelist to Windu and yet, via Vaapad, Windu is able to become his equal.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But now Windu can reflect Dooku's power back upon him so it's kinda a moot point. Sidious, certainly, appears to be a superior duelist to Windu and yet, via Vaapad, Windu is able to become his equal.

Dooku isn't a power duelist so that'd do nothing for him. Also Sidious is the embodiment of the darkside. You cannot possibly compare the amp Mace received against him to the one he'd get against Dooku.

Dooku's also gotten more powerful since he used to spar with Mace, and as far as feats go is the superior force user. Vaapad is great but it isn't an autowin against darksiders, especially not when said darksider has sparred with him on multiple occasions and is familiar with his form.

I'm not comparing the amp Windu would receive against Dooku to the one he received against Sidious. However, he does get to use Dooku's own power against him meaning Windu will at the very least be Dooku's equal.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Team 1 imo, and here's why.
Mace could not prevent Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto from being cut down in seconds he will not prevent Kenobi and Grievous from being ashed or worse especially not with Dooku supporting.

To be fair, RotS is a completely different situation. Windu had absolutely no idea what he was up against, other than he was the Sith Lord behind the grand scheme. I assume that in this scenario he knows the power of the opponent he's fighting. If so, this changes things. He would go in blazing and amping himself with Vapaad from second one. If he managed to get close to Sidious before he blitzes Kenobi or Grievous, team 2 has a chance. If not, and Dooku gets to Windu before he gets to Sidious, team 1 most definitely takes this.

I agree with the rest of your assessment, though.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not comparing the amp Windu would receive against Dooku to the one he received against Sidious. However, he does get to use Dooku's own power against him meaning Windu will at the very least be Dooku's equal.

Yes but the basis of your argument is flawed. Sidious is a power fighter, so Mace getting amped to his level of speed and power is a tremendous advantage. Dooku is not, Dooku is a technical fighter who uses excellent footwork and more precise movements. Meaning a small speed/ power amp will not change the outcome of the duel very much at all. Dooku fought against Anakin of all people who's raw power is way above Mace's. The small amp Mace will get from it will not really do much for him imo.

Most importantly for Dooku, his only real weakness, terrible stamina, isn't likely to come up in this fight. It'll be over far too quickly with Sidious there.

He doesn't have terrible stamina.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes but the basis of your argument is flawed. Sidious is a power fighter, so Mace getting amped to his level of speed and power is a tremendous advantage. Dooku is not, Dooku is a technical fighter who uses excellent footwork and more precise movements. Meaning a small speed/ power amp will not change the outcome of the duel very much at all. Dooku fought against Anakin of all people who's raw power is way above Mace's. The small amp Mace will get from it will not really do much for him imo.

Dooku is still tremendously powerful. Sure, not as powerful as Sidious but still incredibly powerful. So Windu is still going to get a sizable boost and, at the very least, it will bring him to Dooku's level.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=609699
huehuehue

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But now Windu can reflect Dooku's power back upon him so it's kinda a moot point. Sidious, certainly, appears to be a superior duelist to Windu and yet, via Vaapad, Windu is able to become his equal.

Windu was not his equal Sidious let him win so that point is mute