Considering what Mara almost did to Caedus (full strength Caedus, mind you, none of this wounded nonsense Jaina benefited from...), only those who are truly OP can overcome her Batman style of fighting. Kit's just not anywhere near that level.
Granted, she doesn't do as well in straight fights, but trying to use her in a straight fight discredits her personality and tactics. Straight fights just aren't what she does for a living.
Originally posted by |King Joker|Six years prior to his fight with Kolar, he fought and nearly defeated the two Morgukai Tsyr and Bok.
What are Quinlan's best dueling feats that happened before his duel with Agen, ILS?
Important things to note about this? Vos was injured from being slashed by multiple shuriken before this fight, and his main form, ataru, is ill-suited to fighting multiple opponents, meaning only true masters of the form can effectively use it against multiple opponents.
Not only was Vos dealing with adverse conditions, but the Morgukai are elite warriors. They're renowned for being able to repeatedly kill Jedi and Sith in melee combat.
The red-skinned Kajain'sa'Nikto subspecies famously produced one of the most elite warrior traditions in the galaxy: the "Jedi-killing" cult of the Morgukai. These peerless duelists are among the only non-Force users to repeatedly defeat both Jedi and Sith in melee combat. Fortunately for their opponents, the Morgukai's numbers remain few, but their battle tactics are closely guarded secrets.
Fast forward six years later, and Kolar wipes Vos out in a matter of two moves. Like I said, Vos alone has Kavar outskilled, never mind the guy who wrecked Vos.
Originally posted by ILS
Vrook doesn't have enough dueling renown to
Wait. Stop there.
He has a lack of information. That means his precise position is unknown, it doesn't mean it's automatically weak.
And what little information we have- lead the battle against the Jedi Covenant, and supposed to be able to put up some fight against the Exiles- doesn't paint him as weak.
Someone has to earn the title of 'feeb' just as much as one has to earn the title of 'strong,' and Vrook has a reasonable amount of renown.
Heck, remember what I actually said- "Maybe he was a Kolar level guy who got old." Which is just a maybe, and does also say he's not as strong as Kolar anymore. I didn't say he's as strong as Kolar to begin with, so you don't need to freak out.
It's your utter lack of knowledge on, or complete underestimation of, Vos, that prevents you from recognizing that Kolar is one of the best duelists of the era.
Oh hey, like I've said before, I own and read almost every single comic with Vos 🙂 I got into Legacy because it was by the writer of the Quinlan Vos stuff, seriously.
He is, also, presented as an underdog in many fights. He is quite a solid warrior, but beating him doesn't make one top tier... especially when he received a lot of training after that defeat, so basically what I'm saying is, "He gets stronger, and Vos later on is even more impressive!".
Then there's the matter that Vos proceeded to escape from Kolar, it wasn't a successful capture, and Vos was only trying to avoid getting captured so he was the one who completed his objectives there...
Additionally, we have additional info on Kolar! Such as, well, Fisto was able to react to Sidious and Kolar was not. So that also tells us solidly which is the better of those two.
And somehow you've looped around 'How strong is Vrook?' to trying to diss me on Vos, who I likely know at *least* as well as you!
Oh boy.
Q99
Wait. Stop there.How does he have a lack of information, exactly? Is there anything actually indicating that he could potentially be on Kolar's level? Also lol @ misinterpreting what I said as me calling Kavar "weak" - weren't you not too long ago calling my reading comprehension into question?He has a lack of information. That means his precise position is unknown, it doesn't mean it's automatically weak.
And what little information we have- lead the battle against the Jedi Covenant, and supposed to be able to put up some fight against the Exiles- doesn't paint him as weak.Again, didn't say he was weak. Nice reading comprehension brah 👆
Someone has to earn the title of 'feeb' just as much as one has to earn the title of 'strong,' and Vrook has a reasonable amount of renown.I didn't say he earned the title of feeb, I'm just baffled that you think there's anything to indicate Kavar could be near Kolar, whether that be a matter of cold-hard evidence, or potential information.Heck, remember what I actually said- "Maybe he was a Kolar level guy who got old." Which is just a maybe, and does also say he's not as strong as Kolar anymore. I didn't say he's as strong as Kolar to begin with, so you don't need to freak out.
I'm not freaking out, just loling.
Oh hey, like I've said before, I own and read almost every single comic with Vos smile I got into Legacy because it was by the writer of the Quinlan Vos stuff, seriously.That doesn't mean that you're capable of actually interpreting it properly.
He is, also, presented as an underdog in many fights.Indeed.
He is quite a solid warrior, but beating him doesn't make one top tier...Let's not talk about arbitrary tiering for a moment - explain to me why you believe Kavar to be so superior to Vos that he could potentially be as good as Kolar.
especially when he received a lot of training after that defeat, so basically what I'm saying is, "He gets stronger, and Vos later on is even more impressive!".Proof he received "a lot of training" - he sparred with Dooku occasionally and only once did Dooku state that Vos improved, and literally all he said was "better" - how that has led you to believe that Vos improved to such an extent that Kolar wouldn't rapidly defeat them if they fought again, is totally lost to me.
Also, one of Vos's best dueling feats takes place six years prior to his fight with Kolar, which I expounded on above.
Then there's the matter that Vos proceeded to escape from Kolar, it wasn't a successful capture, and Vos was only trying to avoid getting captured so he was the one who completed his objectives there...Vos was only trying to get captured? LMFAO. What do you call this, then?
Also lol @ Vos successfully escaping by his own merit. He only escaped because he had a cantina full of gunmen to distract Kolar while he ran off. I'm not sure if you have read these comics, to be honest.
Additionally, we have additional info on Kolar! Such as, well, Fisto was able to react to Sidious and Kolar was not. So that also tells us solidly which is the better of those two.1. Surprise played a factor in Sidious stomping Kolar and Tiin.
2. Fisto is renowned for his impressive speed and has many impressive speed feats, so him holding Sidious off for a few more strikes than Kolar doesn't indicate that he's "solidly" above him in terms of skill, only that he has better reaction time - and he would have had more time to react as well, considering Kolar was the first target, whereas Fisto was the third and was being aided by Mace Windu in parrying Sidious.
And somehow you've looped around 'How strong is Vrook?' to trying to diss me on Vos, who I likely know at *least* as well as you!LMFAO.
Originally posted by Q99Right, but that's an example of correlation rather than causation. Shaak-Ti and the others you mentioned were all renowned for their wisdom as much as their combat prowess, whereas Anakin for example rivaled or was outright superior to most of them in dueling ability but was never truly welcome on the council. Point is, you can be weak as a new-born baby and still make it on the council if you're wise enough. On the other hand, the most badass duelist who ever lived will never go further than Master/Sword-master if they're a blood-knight or dumb as hell. So simply being on the council isn't really a metric of skill.
Council isn't *just* strength, but when one is elected to the council for strength, that's generally a good sign of how strong they are. Fisto, Tiin, Kolar, Ki-Adi, Shaak Ti? They all got their slots based on being rather badass.The fact of the matter is, most of the order's strongest warriors are on the council, and tend to clump around a few strength ranges.
Mind you, I don't get the impression that you're actually making that claim.
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On an unrelated note, Mara's one of my favorite characters in the entire mythos, second only to Obi-Wan perhaps, but ****in' A there is no way in hell she is casually stomping Kit like some of you are stating. I think she'd win, but she's going to work for it.
Well, of course it's not going to be the hardest battle of her life. That was Darth Caedus. It was also the last battle of her life. Damn you Karen. Damn you.
Seeing as Caedus stand second only to Luke and Sidious themselves, and alongside Plageuis and Yoda, it says a lot that it took him to kill her off.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Right, but that's an example of correlation rather than causation. Shaak-Ti and the others you mentioned were all renowned for their wisdom as much as their combat prowess, whereas Anakin for example rivaled or was outright superior to most of them in dueling ability but was never truly welcome on the council. Point is, you can be weak as a new-born baby and still make it on the council if you're wise enough. On the other hand, the most badass duelist who ever lived will never go further than Master/Sword-master if they're a blood-knight or dumb as hell. So simply being on the council isn't really a metric of skill.Mind you, I don't get the impression that you're actually making that claim.
Right, there's other requirements. One can be that strong without being council and so on.
But the majority of Jedi who are that level are Council, and a lot of Council people are not far from those levels.