Abraxas Vs Adjudicator

Originally posted by leonidas

but still. didn't magus, with an incomplete IG, deal easily with the nullifier?

Originally posted by leonidas

more powerful than uatu apparently, even though that whole thing was off-panel

There's other things but it was factually established that nothing short of a Multiversal make-over could stop him. (UN at the time)

Originally posted by leonidas

as far as franklin--i know he scared young frank. would he handle elder franklin.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Starlin's IG.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
i know there was only one set back then, but how many sets of infinity gems and infinity gauntlets are there in marvel now, mr. master?

^ Yeah:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Magus was a monster with Starlin's IG.

Abraxas mind wiped, then comatose Uatu from who knows how many universeS away. Incinerated Surfer likewise.
Abraxas also displayed detailed influence over Multiversal distances,
when he killed every alternate Reed while simultaneously slowly killing 616 Reed.

There's other things but it was factually established that nothing short of a Multiversal make-over could stop him. (UN at the time)

Abraxas had the power to manipulate Franklin's dream state, (from universeS away too) where Franky is supposed to be more powerful.

magus was powerful, but less powerful than thanos with the complete IG and presumably below eternity as well. so, magus<eternity easily deals with the un, but abraxas>MULTI-eternity can't do anything?

makes no sense. the reed stuff was cool, but i can't actually remember the whole scene. the watcher and all the other galactus's were off-panel, so....sentry stalemated galactus too?

beating ss, is pretty meh, given abraxas's level. don't get why it matters if he was universes away. i can show a scan of spiral psi-blasting someone from the bodyshoppe, which is several dimensions removed. nate gray has an omniversal level telepathy feat. being universes away has never really impressed me at all. going by feats, universes collapsed at his passing. he didn't blast them away. his function was destruction. feats are severely lacking for him. i bumped an old thread that covers much of the already and since things haven't changed for abraxas since, my opinion of him and his power really hasn't changed.

however, since lt has now been proven to be the embodiment of the multiverse (and i suppose that terrible multi-eternity idea is finally and thankfully dead...) does that mean abraxas>lt now...? would he have destroyed the beyonders as well....? i have a hard time agreeing to either of those premises....

Originally posted by leonidas
the reed stuff was cool, but i can't actually remember the whole scene.

(Whole scan):
http://i.imgur.com/oUBBMwe.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
however, since lt has now been proven to be the embodiment of the multiverse (and i suppose that terrible multi-eternity idea is finally and thankfully dead...) does that mean abraxas>lt now...?

Personally, I think it's best to just act like Multi-Eternity never existed. Per this 'retcon', LT is, and has always been, the true embodiment of the multiverse. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas

magus was powerful, but less powerful than thanos with the complete IG and presumably below eternity as well. so, magus<eternity easily deals with the un, but abraxas>MULTI-eternity can't do anything?

It was the combined power of Eternity/Infinity that beat Magus,
but,
only after Magus had struggled with Warlock across countless universes only to catch Magus at the right moment off guard.

There's also an interpretation in the tie-ins good friend which suggests the Multiverse blew up in that final showdown.

Originally posted by leonidas

the watcher and all the other galactus's were off-panel, so....sentry stalemated galactus too?

Unlike someone's "word" on the matter like in the Sentry case,
we actually see Uatu's misery on panel, and then we find out who caused it.
On top of that, unless you have proof Abraxas employs any kind of weaponry,
we have no reason to assume he used anything other than what he was presented with on panel the entire story, namely, his own power.

Even the UN, which Abraxas was desperate to acquire, was never to be used by Abraxas. Literally stated on panel.

Originally posted by leonidas

going by feats, universes collapsed at his passing. he didn't blast them away. his function was destruction. feats are severely lacking for him.

------------------------------------------------------------------

"Abraxas ... power enabling him to traverse and manipulate Dimensions at will, restructure matter ... "

--------

AB - FF Ultimate Guide bio:

Restructuring Reality is nothing to Abraxas!

"He can restructure matter and convert physical matter into pure energy ...
he has destroyed entire planes of Reality"

--------

"We're dealing with a being of Godlike powers, bending Reality means nothing to him"

Originally posted by leonidas

however, since lt has now been proven to be the embodiment of the multiverse (and i suppose that terrible multi-eternity idea is finally and thankfully dead...) does that mean abraxas>lt now...?

Originally posted by Galan007
This is the entire scene:

(Whole scan):
http://i.imgur.com/oUBBMwe.jpg

Yeah, obviously 'rax is nowhere near LT's level--a single Beyonder would stomp him, imo.

Personally, I think it's best to just act like Multi-Eternity never existed. Per this 'retcon', LT is, and has always been, the true embodiment of the multiverse. 👆

👆

yeah, i thought that was what it was. basically, he killed all reed's by seeming to kill the 616 version. i guess that's kind of cool, but 616 has often been portrayed as special. if it dies, everything dies, etc... not sure it's as impressive as all that, but maybe i'm just not, nor have i ever been, a fan of abraxas or that arc....

Oh yeah, the Abraxas arc was absolutely terrible. Abraxas himself could have been SO much better in the hands of a decent writer, imo... Imagine if Hickman were to write Abraxas, for example. droolio

Originally posted by leonidas

basically, he killed all reed's by seeming to kill the 616 version.

i guess that's kind of cool, but 616 has often been portrayed as special. if it dies, everything dies, etc..

Any scans to support this claim good friend?

Or was Abraxas able to perform this feat across universeS no different than stomping a cosmic like Uatu:

Nearly two entire issues before Abraxas appears in 616,
he's already wiped away Uatu's memory, stolen his emblem and further comatose him later:

Â_

If there's any doubt Abraxas did this (under his own power) before he entered 616:

---------------------------------------

... or how he toyed with Franklin from universeS away inside Franklin's dream state:

We know this is really him cause he has half of Uatu's emblem,
which he also took from Uatu while also wiping his memory
and then comatose his ass.

---------------------------------------

Imo, Abraxas proved capable of performing that Reed feat without the need to use a 'chain-reaction' affect.

Originally posted by leonidas
👆

yeah, i thought that was what it was. basically, he killed all reed's by seeming to kill the 616 version. i guess that's kind of cool, but 616 has often been portrayed as special. if it dies, everything dies, etc... not sure it's as impressive as all that, but maybe i'm just not, nor have i ever been, a fan of abraxas or that arc....

They aren't connected like that.

^ Well yeah. An example from that very same arc: 616 Galactus was dead when the story began, yet his alternates were definitely still alive(Abraxas went around the multiverse killing them, after all.)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting, I've never heard that before concerning a single individual.

Any scans to support this claim good friend?

Or was Abraxas able to perform this feat across universeS no different than stomping a cosmic like Uatu:

Nearly two entire issues before Abraxas appears in 616,
he's already wiped away Uatu's memory, stolen his emblem and further comatose him later:

Â_

If there's any doubt Abraxas did this (under his own power) before he entered 616:

---------------------------------------

... or how he toyed with Franklin from universeS away inside Franklin's dream state:

We know this is really him cause he has half of Uatu's emblem,
which he also took from Uatu while also wiping his memory
and then comatose his ass.

---------------------------------------

Imo, Abraxas proved capable of performing that Reed feat without the need to use a 'chain-reaction' affect.

scans to support that 616 is special? i think you know those ones as well as i do....

you also know there is nothing in the story that specifically says that killing 616 reed kills the others, but that's what it seems is happening imo. perhaps it had to do with the way things were merging, i don't know. and of course, maybe you're right and it was just some display of a cool power. regardless, i didn't find the display terribly impressive given he is a multiversal entity.

so, basically there are some bios (one also explicitly states abraxas is galactus level....) some decent off panel stuff, and his odd killing of the reeds. that isn't really very much at all to draw inferences regarding his power. we don't even know abraxas physically did ANYTHING to the watcher. i could show a bio that suggests it was simply the blurring of the universes that drove uatu briefly crazy. that would make the watcher nothing more than a casualty of the cascade that was taking place, and not a victim of abraxas's 'personal power' at all. and given that we never saw exactly what happened, neither explanation is better than the other. the cascade effect seems more plausible to me given his displayed powers. then he could have simply taken the emblem after uatu was blinded. you say supposition/speculation. and so it is (with some bio support). but no more than speculating that off panel uatu was blasted by some power from across the multiverse.....

that said, clearly he's a cosmic being and clearly he is powerful. but i've still seen nothing to suggest that he has universe destroying power on his own. all he ever did was sort of walk around and universes collapsed/merged around him. there is no reason at all to suggest he could do that with his personal power. seems much easier to believe it was his function. i can also show a bio that says he is the 'embodiment of destruction', so it seems to fit what he was doing. in a neutral place, i don't see him being much above galactus, or franklin for that matter, and the ease with which galactus dismissed him and took the nullifier from him would suggest the same.

i suspect we won't see eye-to-eye on this and that's fine. we've not seen the same things in the past, and i'm sure our views will conflict at times in the future. imo he has nowhere near enough feats to adequately gauge the extent of his personal power, nor would i place him on the level of some of the uber cosmic entities we've seen before and since. a universal power, with the ability to affect alternate universes is what i'd label him were i forced to do so.

Originally posted by Mindset
But there are living versions in other universes of 616 characters that have died.

They aren't connected like that.

you're right about that of course, but the scenario was special in this issue. all the universes had begun to merge already, so that may have played a part. or not. maybe he did use his unique abilities to affect all through the one reed. it's cool, regardless, i just don't see it as being that uber of a feat, given the level of the character we are discussing. if that's his feat, i still find him very lacking.

Originally posted by leonidas

scans to support that 616 is special? i think you know those ones as well as i do....

But yes, there are several supportive interpretations which suggest destroying the 616 reality = all realities die.
Yet, I must submit, there are also several supportive interpretations which suggest 616 is as expendable as any other reality.

That's writer dependent from my experience.

Originally posted by leonidas

you also know there is nothing in the story that specifically says that killing 616 reed kills the others, but that's what it seems is happening imo. perhaps it had to do with the way things were merging, i don't know. and of course, maybe you're right and it was just some display of a cool power. regardless, i didn't find the display terribly impressive given he is a multiversal entity.

Originally posted by leonidas

so, basically there are some bios (one also explicitly states abraxas is galactus level....) some decent off panel stuff, and his odd killing of the reeds. that isn't really very much at all to draw inferences regarding his power. we don't even know abraxas physically did ANYTHING to the watcher. i could show a bio that suggests it was simply the blurring of the universes that drove uatu briefly crazy. that would make the watcher nothing more than a casualty of the cascade that was taking place, and not a victim of abraxas's 'personal power' at all. and given that we never saw exactly what happened, neither explanation is better than the other. the cascade effect seems more plausible to me given his displayed powers. then he could have simply taken the emblem after uatu was blinded. you say supposition/speculation. and so it is (with some bio support). but no more than speculating that off panel uatu was blasted by some power from across the multiverse.....

As far as Uatu is concerned, it's true,
Abraxas' bio attributes his "comatose" result to the merging of realities, but the memory loss isn't mentioned.

On the other hand, Uatu's bio confirms that Abraxas himself attacked Uatu:

[img=http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/22602962_Abraxas_Uatu_bio.jpg]

------------------------------------

I suppose that's a toss up concerning "bios."

But on panel good friend, Abraxas had half of Uatu's emblem before he entered 616, so he had to have taken it from afar.

... no different than incinerating Surfer "by some power from across the multiverse."

------------------------------------

Abraxas was literally controlling everything there from UniverseS away.

From the speed and trajectory of the Galactus head:

-------------------------

To the creature army that attacked the heroes,
to the microbiotic particles that made up the mist and goo which incinerated Surfer,
to Uatu getting mind wiped, and half his emblem taken.
to the Alternate Universes merging:

The "sentient" storm, is where the creature army and microbiotic particles emerged from.

-------------------------------------------

Heck, concerning the microbiotic particles,
Abraxas' power being willed at specific targets across UniverseS is further proven here:

Reed handles the microbiotic particles and they don't hurt him at all:

-------------------------

But the microbiotic particles (a fraction of Abraxas' power) are consciously being controlled by Abraxas:

After going for Uatu's comatose body, Abraxas specifically attacks Surfer (via the mist/particles) and incinerates him.

Originally posted by leonidas

that said, clearly he's a cosmic being and clearly he is powerful. but i've still seen nothing to suggest that he has universe destroying power on his own. all he ever did was sort of walk around and universes collapsed/merged around him. there is no reason at all to suggest he could do that with his personal power. seems much easier to believe it was his function. i can also show a bio that says he is the 'embodiment of destruction', so it seems to fit what he was doing. in a neutral place, i don't see him being much above galactus, or franklin for that matter, and the ease with which galactus dismissed him and took the nullifier from him would suggest the same.

What yur saying is akin to: Eternity doesn't/can't control "time" cause it's his function.

The only thing Galactus did was summon the UN from Abraxas' hands.
Unlike Galactus himself who got dropped to his knees by some alternate Nova right after:

It's beautiful ... ol' big G summons the UN from Abraxas' hands,
then Nova rips through G's head and the UN is no longer in the hand of mr ... "you are nothing" ...

... hilarious isn't it? Actually, that's just comic's pis plot for ya to end a story..

Originally posted by leonidas

i suspect we won't see eye-to-eye on this and that's fine. we've not seen the same things in the past, and i'm sure our views will conflict at times in the future. imo he has nowhere near enough feats to adequately gauge the extent of his personal power, nor would i place him on the level of some of the uber cosmic entities we've seen before and since. a universal power, with the ability to affect alternate universes is what i'd label him were i forced to do so.

Imo, from the story I read: Abraxas > All Eternity/Infinity.

In fact, had it not been for the UN, Abraxas becomes 'God' of "all that is, was, or ever will be" ...

[img=http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/22603238_AB3.jpg]
[img=http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/22603240_AB4.jpg]
[img=http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/22603237_AB2.jpg]

Well, ... 'God' of an aftermath of destruction/nothingness.

Nova flew through Galactus' dome when he was unaware, which hurt I'm sure--but then Galactus casually destroyed all of "Abraxas' Heralds" with a single burst:

Point is: that scene doesn't discredit Galactus' verbal thrashing of Abraxas. Tbh, if Abraxas were several tiers above Galactus, I wouldn't think that Galactus could have effortlessly recalled the UN from his hands at all. If Abraxas were that far beyond Galactus, I'd *think* he could have just said: "nope, I'm hanging onto this little trinket, b*tch...", and then gestured him away. /shrug

But as I've said before: Galactus has no problem acknowledging a credible threat to himself. Hell, he outright admitted that he feared a confrontation with child Franklin:

So for him to refer to Abraxas as "nothing" potentially speaks volumes. Granted, I'm not speaking in absolutes here, because I obviously cannot(they never fought, after all), just saying that I understand why some may not view Abraxas in an entirely different league than Galactus.

Originally posted by Galan007

Nova flew through Galactus' dome when he was unaware, which hurt I'm sure--but then Galactus casually destroyed all of "Abraxas' Heralds" with a single burst

The fact that Nova was able to get the UN out of G's hand is the point, while Abraxas did not.

Then Abraxas doesn't take it away from Reed either, lol, while a single thought could've accomplished that.
Just like his simple gesture took out infinite Reeds.

I'm not really upset by this, it's the necessary PIS to end the story. Because if Abraxas gets the UN back, he's unbeatable!

Originally posted by Galan007

Point is: that scene doesn't discredit Galactus' verbal thrashing of Abraxas. Tbh, if Abraxas were several tiers above Galactus, I wouldn't think that Galactus could have effortlessly recalled the UN from his hands at all. If Abraxas were that far beyond Galactus, I'd *think* he could have just said: "nope, I'm hanging onto this little trinket, b*tch...", and then gestured him away.

Galactus' blustering was empty tuff talk in reply to Abraxas' ... 'I hold the UN, therefore I can't lose.'

The Multiverse was collapsing cause of Abraxas, All Eternity/Infinity was desperate,
Roma prepped for yearS foreseeing Abraxas' manifestation.
In fact, that's the reason Roma ensured Valeria's survival/education through the years,
just so she could help revive 616 G in order to retrieve the UN at that specific moment:

Originally posted by Galan007

But as I've said before: Galactus has no problem acknowledging a credible threat to himself. Hell, he outright admitted that he feared a confrontation with child Franklin

Originally posted by Galan007

So for him to refer to Abraxas as "nothing" potentially speaks volumes.

just saying that I understand why some may not view Abraxas in an entirely different league than Galactus.

Honesty G, I don't understand,
for me, when Galactus proves he can target specific points across the entire Mulitverse simultaneously,
and when Galactus goes around collapsing universes left and right and even all Eternity/Infinity can't stop him,
and when it's factually declared that only the most powerful weapon (arguably) in creation can stop him ...

... I may entertain the thought.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.

Galactus' blustering was empty tuff talk in reply to Abraxas' ... 'I hold the UN, therefore I can't lose.'

That's the point I was making, and it is a valid one... Write it off any way you'd like, though.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Multiverse was collapsing cause of Abraxas, All Eternity/Infinity was desperate,
Roma prepped for yearS foreseeing Abraxas' manifestation.
In fact, that's the reason Roma ensured Valeria's survival/education through the years,
just so she could help revive 616 G in order to retrieve the UN at that specific moment:

Originally posted by Mr Master
If only Galactus was real. But actually that's a completely different writer/story thinking for Galactus.

Sorry if it doesn't suit your POV, but Galactus has NO qualms with acknowledging credible threats. /shrug

Originally posted by Mr Master
It doesn't say anything relevant concerning Abraxas imo.

I'm not saying you have to share my opinion... You're welcome to your own thoughts on the matter. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007

Galactus still broke Abraxas' hold on the UN. Casually.
That makes it more than just "empty tuff talk", imho.

That's the point I was making, and it is a valid one... Write it off any way you'd like, though.

My point made.

Originally posted by Galan007

This has no bearing on anything I said.

Anyway, 616 Galactus' only purpose there was to take away the one thing in that story that could stop Abraxas ... the UN.

That's the bottom line.

Originally posted by Galan007

ANY statements made by Galactus in ANY canon comic he's EVER appeared in, are canon to his character--that is simply how canonicity works.

Sorry if it doesn't suit your POV, but Galactus has NO qualms with acknowledging credible threats.

Originally posted by Galan007

Obviously I figured you'd disagree. As I mentioned above: based on the evidence at hand, I understand why some may not view Abraxas in an entirely different league than Galactus--the one scene they appeared in together treated them as peers, at the most.

I'm not saying you have to share my opinion... You're welcome to your own thoughts on the matter.

Abraxas >>> Galactus .. since well, ... Abraxas > All Eternity/Infinity!

In the story it was made clear:

ONLY the Ultimate Nullifier > Abraxas: (that's why the FF took a journey across the multiverse looking for it) 👆

......................................................................................

Roma (Omniversal Guardian) ... On Panel:

Roma: "It will be a weapon of unimaginable power that will win this day"

......................................................................................

Here Galactus says it, and Reed realizes this truth:

Galactus: "But this time, this Day can end only one way"

Reed: "Yes .... God help me, I can see that now"

......................................................................................

I'm also not saying you have to share my opinion, or the story's ... You're welcome to your own thoughts on the matter likewise. 😛

Originally posted by Mr Master
... and an alternate Nova easily made Galactus drop the UN.

My point made.

Point was, it's ridiculous for Abraxas to be called nothing when he was responsible for all reality falling apart.

Anyway, 616 Galactus' only purpose there was to take away the one thing in that story that could stop Abraxas ... the UN.

That's the bottom line.

I see. Well, there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that supports Galactus' statement.

Obviously I figured you'd disagree as well. As I mentioned above: based on the evidence at hand:

Abraxas >>> Galactus .. since well, ... Abraxas > All Eternity/Infinity!

In the story it was made clear:

ONLY the Ultimate Nullifier > Abraxas: (that's why the FF took a journey across the multiverse looking for it) 👆

I'd also like to point out, that that "nothing" aka Abraxas had killed MULTIPLE Galactus' throughout the multiverse. Hail Abraxas! 😮‍💨