Maul, Savage and Ventress vs. HoT, Darach and Zallow

In the words of Satele Shan: "You are our greatest warrior... And our best hope."
Herself included. Someone who managed to battle a powerful (though not peak) Malgus evenly and actually put him on his ass. What does that tell you about HoT's prowess as a warrior? Pretty high praise, I'd say. The Knight story revolves around the notion that the main protagonist is a Jedi who mainly focuses on mastery of lightsaber and TK. He certainly kills a good number of powerful Sith throughout the story, Vitiate included. Nothing suggests Maul is as good a combatant as HoT overall, even as deadly and skilled as he is.

Beating Vitiate has nothing to do with his skills as a lightsaber duelist 👆. We have no idea how he faired in a duel with Malgus either, Maul has fought evenly with Mace Windu, fought evenly with General Grievous, beaten Obi Wan Kenobi, killed Jinn and Bondara who were considered two of the greatest Swordsmen produced by the Jedi order, and was considered the most skilled Sith in history compared to Hero beating primarily featless individuals

There is more than enough evidence to suggest HoT is a powerhouse. It's unbelievable to me that you'd say it's very possible for Maul to be more powerful in the Force.

Can you give me any indication why his "power" would mean anything more than the large gap in dueling ability between the two? He was throwing around a weakened Vitiate, apart from that he collapsed Tunnels which Maul has done as well as sending Kenobi flying. People always try to make Hero sound 00ber, when his telekinetic feats aren't much better than Ventress's

As for the match Ventess is superior skillfully to Zallow (though it'd be a good fight), and Darach would lose to either Ventress or Savage who have fought superior opponents to either.

Originally posted by Stigma
wut?

Your point is that SK has crazy feats? :maybe

Nah

Think dude, he has the power to manipulate a Star Destroyer, yet he can only throw an amount of power able to level a decent sized building into his Force Lightning? :maybe

Sidious has the same issue, where his Force Lightning is explicitly his talent, yet the TK feats he powerscales to are hilariously above anything most Lightning feats in the franchise ever accomplished sans Starkiller's clone powering up that one Turbolaser in FUII and probably Orbalisk Bane vs that Drexl and its riders.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Nah

Think dude, he has the power to manipulate a Star Destroyer, yet he can only throw an amount of power able to level a decent sized building into his Force Lightning? :maybe

Sidious has the same issue, where his Force Lightning is explicitly his talent, yet the TK feats he powerscales to are hilariously above anything most Lightning feats in the franchise ever accomplished sans Starkiller's clone powering up that one Turbolaser in FUII and probably Orbalisk Bane vs that Drexl and its riders.

Originally posted by Stigma
Isn’t it exactly the case of power scaling when we are not swayed away at the first glance by SK's crazy feats and we powerscale them (also via his fights with Vader, Kota and others).

Not sure you're following me :hmm

Which is normal, granted, because I suck at explaining my points well

Its not like every character is Corran Horn with an explicitly noted disability with a given force skill

Some might have powers they're more talented with, but being their energy that they're drawing on, its sort of ridiculous to conclude there's a massive disparity in magnitude of power between different skills

Think Dragon Ball, the Kamehameha is superior to a generic ki blast, but the Kamehameha being better doesn't mean Goku from the Frieza Saga could overpower a generic ki blast from Buu Saga Goku

In other words, the policy now is completely opposite of what it used to be accepted here a few years ago. I can almost guarantee that if, say, Revan or Bane had those feats they would be considered "zomg untouchable" but we are reasonable enough to take into the amount other things too.

Honestly more impressed with the kind of power a good number of KOTOR era feats took compared to anything I saw in The Force Unleashed :hmm

Thon matching the Dark Side Nexus on Ambria that once razed the planet with Force Light comes to mind

Which with accolades does extend to ****ers like Yoda/Sidious naturally

Not that I'm telling you guys how to run this thing, this hobby is a crap shoot, inexact, and generally far from concrete. Feats have multiple ways to interpret them, the conclusions I've drawn mostly exist to fit general precedents where I post and avoid hypocrisy between all series we keep track of.

ChaosTheory lol.

@Cart, good post.

By all means, give me your perspective

A laugh doesn't tell me much other than you think something is funny :maybe

I'm personally not sold that the Jar'kai fight between Sidious and Maul was easy for Sidious, based on the idea that he could have snapped Maul's neck with TK at any time.

That's one theory, which isn't supported by anything, but then there's also the theory that Sidious wanted a challenge and decided to duel Maul?

Then, you can contrast Sidious' demeanour between how he was when he was cackling at Maul and Savage earlier, and how he scrunches his face up and shit in his last fight with Maul. Visually, he was exerting more effort and focus than earlier on. And he wasn't laughing any more.

Not saying Sidious was giving it his all the same way Maul clearly was, but I think claiming that, in the final portions of that fight, that Sidious still wasn't finding it difficult at all, is pushing it.

Worth noting that the Maul who had just seen Savage butchered by Sidious, is probably a notch or two above the pay grade of standard Maul. In a no-circumstances bout he doesn't have the same emotions to draw on. So the feat isn't transferable without scaling it down.

Originally posted by ILS
I'm personally not sold that the Jar'kai fight between Sidious and Maul was easy for Sidious, based on the idea that he could have snapped Maul's neck with TK at any time.

That's one theory, which isn't supported by anything

His general ability to throw TK at them at his leisure and his general causal raw power advantage over them is really all the support you need to conclude he could have killed them at any time

but then there's also the theory that Sidious wanted a challenge and decided to duel Maul?

Plausible

Not concrete, which is my main gripe, but I never denied plausibility.

Then, you can contrast Sidious' demeanour between how he was when he was cackling at Maul and Savage earlier, and how he scrunches his face up and shit in his last fight with Maul. Visually, he was exerting more effort and focus than earlier on. And he wasn't laughing any more.

And this is a fair point

Doesn't quantify how much more Sidious was exerting himself for us, but it does suggest he was taking it more "seriously"

Then again, Sidious kind of suffers the same issue Saitama of One Punch Man does, not to the same extent (skill gap I imagine in the series in general fails to be that large between high tier duelists), but using him as a stable measuring stick is shaky at best given his general characterization.

Yeah he was amped by rage.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
By all means, give me your perspective

A laugh doesn't tell me much other than you think something is funny :maybe

Yes, your theories. You major in physics or something? Just curious.

BTW, I agree with you on Sidious vs Maul and Savage, though.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, your theories.

Not exactly saying my interpretation of, well, anything, is concrete

You're free to conclude what you want, just do this shit for fun

Because fictional explosions interest me for some bizarre reason I'll never understand

You major in physics or something? Just curious.

Hell no

I majored in Psychology, though I could have gone with Engineering given I like the subject matter too.

Figured I'd force myself to get the highest degree (in a subject I like granted) I could to maybe not be as lazy (because a bachelors is worth its weight in toilet paper :maybe).

Don't let anyone tell you I am either... apparently ****ers on Mangafox have tried claiming I am :lmao

You're not going to see anything from me any harder than... high school physics, maybe some first semester if you push it.

BTW, I agree with you on Sidious vs Maul and Savage, though.

Yeah, I can see what they're saying, I just don't feel its concrete enough to base an argument from is all.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123

Yeah, I can see what they're saying, I just don't feel its concrete enough to base an argument from is all.

👆

So do people actually believe that Sidious is capable of Agen-Kolarizing, or something close to that, even a rage-amped Maul, because they "don't feel it's concrete enough"?

Alright, then.

I'd love to see an argument for someone Hero has fought in saber only combat that compares to Windu/Grievous/ or Kenobi.

Originally posted by ILS
So do people actually believe that Sidious is capable of Agen-Kolarizing, or something close to that, even a rage-amped Maul, because they "don't feel it's concrete enough"?

Alright, then.

A rage amped Maul? No. Probably not even regular Maul. However, it shouldn't be over looked that Sidious wasn't fighting to kill while fighting off a blood lusted beast who was trying to kill him. It's hard to determine how much effort Sidious was putting in that last round. All we know for sure is that he was holding back tremendously. Even his kick was very casual and served more as a means to push Maul back rather than a brutal attack.

Originally posted by ILS
So do people actually believe that Sidious is capable of Agen-Kolarizing, or something close to that, even a rage-amped Maul, because they "don't feel it's concrete enough"?

Alright, then.

First?

Are you suggesting he's worse than Fisto if you're bringing up Kolar?

Second?

The point of debate is to string together a net of logic with as few holes in it as possible (unless you're a politician, then its no holds barred lying through your teeth to sway the masses :maybe). "Not concrete" is tantamount to a margin for error in your conclusion if you base anything off that shaky premise.

Do I want to believe Maul would fall as fast as Fisto hypothetically? No, I think the idea is stupid. Can I prove that it's stupid?

That's the problem.

You can believe something all you want, doesn't always hold up in light of presented evidence.

However?

Play some connect the dots, just because the easy route isn't safe doesn't mean something more airtight doesn't exist to argue.

I mean, Sidious wouldn't use his blitzing speed on someone he's not trying to kill.

Originally posted by Selenial
The final duel, after Savage died it was clear neither of them were holding back.

In the novel the exact opposite is clear. Sidious starts to speed up and Maul finds himself unable to keep up.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
You're honestly going to need Filoni to outright say Sidious was taking Maul seriously at any point in that fight for me to buy it.

Filoni says the exact opposite of this on multiple occasions.

Issue here is that rage Maul has very nearly killed Sidious before via blitz. Maul even getting close to being a competent opponent for Sidious is enough for me to say he is better than any Jedi of the time besides Vaapad-amp Mace and Yoda.

HOT can do this alone.