Originally posted by trexalfa
Bullshit. Apart from the fact that I don't think true omnipotence exists, "omnipotents" cannot be stalemated. Hajun is as close as you get to being one, though.
Agreed, I don't consider omnipotence a valid claim in a VS debate. Feats are all that matters IMO.
So Hajun is one of the strongest characters in fiction?
Who's the weakest person you think can beat him?
Originally posted by AlphaVortex
Agreed, I don't consider omnipotence a valid claim in a VS debate. Feats are all that matters IMO.So Hajun is one of the strongest characters in fiction?
Who's the weakest person you think can beat him?
I checked the thread you told me about, Mxy beating Hajun is pure bullshit, and the Flucrum's claim depends on his true identity because, right now, he is featless.
Judging on the characters Hajun killed, I can think HOTU Thanos and maybe Pre-retcon Beyonder are enough. But there's an issue with all of this, and that is that Taikyouku/Atziluth ignores scale all together. Its Value is the only thing that matters, if you've got a lesser one you can't do shit to the one with the higher Value. This allowed ,for example, Reinhard outpowering one of Mercurius' literal Supernovae with a Railway Gun. And at a much lesser Taikyouku value than 90 (which this characters have), you can already destroy all of creation under the Throne (an infinite multiverse, maybe a megaverse even). And if you thought about Demonbane, no, he doesn't stand a chance in hell.
You'll have to wait for me to read KKK to tell but, I remember that someone told me some glass cannon characteristics Hajun had. I'll have to check.
Originally posted by trexalfa
I checked the thread you told me about, Mxy beating Hajun is pure bullshit, and the Flucrum's claim depends on his true identity because, right now, he is featless.Judging on the characters Hajun killed, I can think HOTU Thanos and maybe Pre-retcon Beyonder are enough. But there's an issue with all of this, and that is that Taikyouku/Atziluth ignores scale all together. Its Value is the only thing that matters, if you've got a lesser one you can't do shit to the one with the higher Value. This allowed ,for example, Reinhard outpowering one of Mercurius' literal Supernovae with a Railway Gun. And at a much lesser Taikyouku value than 90 (which this characters have), you can already destroy all of creation under the Throne (an infinite multiverse, maybe a megaverse even). And if you thought about Demonbane, no, he doesn't stand a chance in hell.
You'll have to wait for me to read KKK to tell but, I remember that someone told me some glass cannon characteristics Hajun had. I'll have to check.
I was thinking Sai Akuto from Demon King Daimaou.
His ability, the Law of Identity, basically gives him Writer ability:
Writer - the ability to see and control the worlds as information, like to write a story in fiction. Endless logical possibilities could include anything that can be described. There are universes of different sizes , (through infinite space) with all sorts of laws. There are stories that include parallel worlds, infinite dimensional spaces, as well as foreign gods , for whom all this is nothing more than fiction (and even lower beings are able to think in terms of an infinitely dense infinity). Stories can be raised to the power, forming a structure where the real worlds for some creatures are only dreams or fiction for the second, whose worlds are also a story for the third. This hierarchy can aspire even to infinity, but the law of identity will always be higher than that of any level.
He would beat PR Beyonder and HotU Thanos IMO. So if Hajun is on their level or weaker, he would probably lose to Sai Akuto.
Originally posted by AlphaVortex
I was thinking Sai Akuto from Demon King Daimaou.
His ability, the Law of Identity, basically gives him Writer ability:Writer - the ability to see and control the worlds as information, like to write a story in fiction. Endless logical possibilities could include anything that can be described. There are universes of different sizes , (through infinite space) with all sorts of laws. There are stories that include parallel worlds, infinite dimensional spaces, as well as foreign gods , for whom all this is nothing more than fiction (and even lower beings are able to think in terms of an infinitely dense infinity). Stories can be raised to the power, forming a structure where the real worlds for some creatures are only dreams or fiction for the second, whose worlds are also a story for the third. This hierarchy can aspire even to infinity, but the law of identity will always be higher than that of any level.
He would beat PR Beyonder and HotU Thanos IMO. So if Hajun is on their level or weaker, he would probably lose to Sai Akuto.
That's pretty hardcore reality warping. Still, what limits has it shown in the story? Because by this line of reasoning, a mook Witch from Umineko may as well be able to trash any Marvel character.
Originally posted by trexalfa
That's pretty hardcore reality warping. Still, what limits has it shown in the story? Because by this line of reasoning, a mook Witch from Umineko may as well be able to trash any Marvel character.
The excerpt shows he's above Hilbert Space level.
Basically infinite universes with infinite spatial dimensions is just a speck to him.
Originally posted by AlphaVortex
The excerpt shows he's above Hilbert Space level.Basically infinite universes with infinite spatial dimensions is just a speck to him.
To add perspective, Hajun killed multiple beings that can destroy infinite universes with ridiculous ease (and, as I previously said, some interpretations have those being an infinite number of multiverses). As previously said also, scale means nothing to him. Those he killed had funny things, such as being able to rape concepts in more ways than I can count.
And Sai, furthermore, is just another reality warper. Just because his power is writer-like, doesn't mean he is THE writer, as in the one writing the setting.
Originally posted by trexalfa
To add perspective, Hajun killed multiple beings that can destroy infinite universes with ridiculous ease (and, as I previously said, some interpretations have those being an infinite number of multiverses). As previously said also, scale means nothing to him. Those he killed had funny things, such as being able to rape concepts in more ways than I can count.And Sai, furthermore, is just another reality warper. Just because his power is writer-like, doesn't mean he is THE writer, as in the one writing the setting.
Were the multiverses Hajun destroyed infinite dimensional? Sai Akuto completely transcends infinite dimensional multiverses.
Scale doesn't matter to Sai either, because Law of Identity is above everything. Scale can go up to infinity, and the Law of Identity would still be higher.
Originally posted by AlphaVortex
Were the multiverses Hajun destroyed infinite dimensional? Sai Akuto completely transcends infinite dimensional multiverses.Scale doesn't matter to Sai either, because Law of Identity is above everything. Scale can go up to infinity, and the Law of Identity would still be higher.
Hajun wouldn't have trouble with such multiverses either, the concept of "infinite dimensional multiverse" would simply be annihilated.
The Law of Identity's workings sound awfully like those of Taikyouku. Which itsValue is basically infinite in Hajun.
Originally posted by trexalfa
Hajun wouldn't have trouble with such multiverses either, the concept of "infinite dimensional multiverse" would simply be annihilated.The Law of Identity's workings sound awfully like those of Taikyouku. Which itsValue is basically infinite in Hajun.
How does Taikyoko work?
Law of Identity basically works like you can keep creating infinite upon infinite upon infinite structures infinitely, but no matter what, the Law of Identity would always be higher.
So Hajun's Taikyoko value can be infinite, and he can keep increasing it, but no matter what LoI would still be higher, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.
Anyways, I personally place Sai Akuto above HotU Thanos and PR Beyonder, because neither of them have done something that complex, so if Hajun is at their level, Sai Akuto would probably beat them IMO.
All my information from Hajun comes from you though, so I'm just basing it off of what you just said.
Originally posted by AlphaVortex
How does Taikyoko work?Law of Identity basically works like you can keep creating infinite upon infinite upon infinite structures infinitely, but no matter what, the Law of Identity would always be higher.
So Hajun's Taikyoko value can be infinite, and he can keep increasing it, but no matter what LoI would still be higher, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.
Anyways, I personally place Sai Akuto above HotU Thanos and PR Beyonder, because neither of them have done something that complex, so if Hajun is at their level, Sai Akuto would probably beat them IMO.
All my information from Hajun comes from you though, so I'm just basing it off of what you just said.
Taikyouku is the source of all of existence in Shinza. Its a power Gods possess, which lets them project a cosmic Law based of their own greatest desire. Hadou Gods in special, since their Laws basically outflow from them. Taikyouku is the source of everything, from souls to concepts. Basically, the Gods are the setting of the novels, with the Throne God's Law being the one dominating existence. Hajun is the sixth Throne God, and the most powerful of them all. Taikyouku is a supreme force, it lets the Gods mess with concepts all they want.
For example, if one's Gods' Taikyouku created some explosion, that would blow up concepts. If another one's grants an instant kill move, then it can kill concepts. Hajun's Taikyouku, as I understand it, is based on "annihilating everything other than myself".
Why would the Law of Identity be higher?
Originally posted by trexalfa
Taikyouku is the source of all of existence in Shinza. Its a power Gods possess, which lets them project a cosmic Law based of their own greatest desire. Hadou Gods in special, since their Laws basically outflow from them. Taikyouku is the source of everything, from souls to concepts. Basically, the Gods are the setting of the novels, with the Throne God's Law being the one dominating existence. Hajun is the sixth Throne God, and the most powerful of them all. Taikyouku is a supreme force, it lets the Gods mess with concepts all they want.For example, if one's Gods' Taikyouku created some explosion, that would blow up concepts. If another one's grants an instant kill move, then it can kill concepts. Hajun's Taikyouku, as I understand it, is based on "annihilating everything other than myself".
Why would the Law of Identity be higher?
the ability to see and control the worlds as information, like to write a story in fiction. Endless logical possibilities could include anything that can be described. There are universes of different sizes , (through infinite space) with all sorts of laws. There are stories that include parallel worlds, infinite dimensional spaces, as well as foreign gods , for whom all this is nothing more than fiction (and even lower beings are able to think in terms of an infinitely dense infinity). Stories can be raised to the power, forming a structure where the real worlds for some creatures are only dreams or fiction for the second, whose worlds are also a story for the third. This hierarchy can aspire even to infinity, but the law of identity will always be higher than that of any level.
Originally posted by danteiscool
Then wouldn't that be a no limits fallacy? Because from what you're saying, it doesn't seem like Sai's power wasn't fully put to the test, so trying to ascertain its limits could be... troublesome.
What are you talking about? The quote clearly shows his abilities. He basically has control over infinite dimensional multiverses, and he can keep creating planes higher than that and can keep doing so forever.
It's not a no limits fallacy.
It's basically like he's Hilbert Space level ++++++*infinity+++