Darth Bane & Darth Zannah vs. Darth Maul & Count Dooku

Originally posted by ILS
If it wasn't you, it was one of your acolytes 💃

Anyone can post baseless declarations. I was asking you to cite feats and then explain why they're impressive enough to suggest Bane can "hold off" Maul and Dooku at the same time. Or solo them, as you suggested he could do earlier.

I appreciate your concern, but honestly, I'm fine. 👆 Not so sure about you tho, matey.

No, I don't concede that Bane can survive for three seconds against Maul and Dooku. I support that notion. I disagree that he can "hold them off", a phrase commonly utilized to describe someone lasting more than a few seconds, as I'm sure you're aware.

Again, I don't care about Zannah. Your wording just sucked. On the bright side, Bane has finally been reduced from someone who can disintegrate Obi-Wan Kenobi with lightning, to someone who promptly loses to Maul and Dooku combined. Natural order = restored 👆

You'd have to ask them.

In PoD Bane solo'd a dozen Tuk'ata at once easily. This was at a point after he'd just left the Korriban academy to go tombraiding, at which point he still believed himself no match of Kas'im and laughed at the idea. Clearly he was nowhere even close to his peak. Not even close to his peak for that book.

In 23 BBY (one year before the clone wars), a pack of ten Tuk'ata gave trouble to Anakin, Obi-wan (who was stated in 33 BBY to be one of the best Jedi in the Order), Ferus Olin (whose a serious rival of Anakin's in terms of ability), Siri Tachi (whose a peer of Obi-wan's), Soara Antana (whose a stated "legendary lightsaber virtuoso, who is better than any other Jedi there), one other Jedi Master, and two other Jedi Padawans. Anakin even got injured taking on one of em 1v1.

Yoda even lost one of his Kybuck's to Tuk'ata while wandering around on Korriban, "leaving his heart heavy."

Luke, Jaina, Ben, and Vestara even came across a group of over a dozen Tuk'ata that Ben thinks would've been too much for the four of them, though Luke thinks he, Jaina, and Ben could handle them but not in time to stop Vestara from escaping.

Credit goes to Emperordmb for pointing this out.

This is one feat that was easy for me to repost and contextualise. You already know his other feats such as blowing sabers out of a Jedi Masters hand, ripping doors off their hinges, moving fast enough that a room of Sith couldn't see him, moving fast enough to appear to wield a dozen sabers at once, block a rainstorm for a dozen minutes, producing an impenetrable offense, being skilled enough to counter everything Kas'im could throw at him and blah blah you already know all of this. In strength and speed he matches and perhaps exceeds what Maul and Dooku have done. In skill he is able to match a person who perfected every lightsaber form, to the point where he was able to dominate the guy in a strict lightsaber duel and instantly counter whatever he could do and seize the advantage. His defense is clearly extremely potent and well able to weather what Dooku and Maul can throw at him. And his feats of power such as utter disintegrating opponents, tearing through 30-meter tall blast doors, obliterating the temple of ancients and others put him easily in and above the league of Maul and Dooku. That he could hold his own against them for a scant few seconds is readily apparent.

I'm fine, just a little bored is all.

So you support the very notion I was trying to establish? You simply assumed I meant for some time, despite the fact that I explicitly stated otherwise on multiple occassion. I'm seriously reconsidering just how much you're truly bordering incompetence now.

My wording did not suck. I very clearly said "Bane really just needs to survive a few attacks" and I repeatedly mentioned Zannah and explained her significance in my posts. That you are too lazy to actually read the words I write does no-one any disservice but yourself. And if you actually could recall something someone said more than a few minutes ago you'd remember that I pointed out that I was merely humoring your position and I in no way suggest that Bane would lose to Maul and Dooku, promptly or otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You'd have to ask them.

In PoD Bane solo'd a dozen Tuk'ata at once easily. This was at a point after he'd just left the Korriban academy to go tombraiding, at which point he still believed himself no match of Kas'im and laughed at the idea. Clearly he was nowhere even close to his peak. Not even close to his peak for that book.

In 23 BBY (one year before the clone wars), a pack of ten Tuk'ata gave trouble to Anakin, Obi-wan (who was stated in 33 BBY to be one of the best Jedi in the Order), Ferus Olin (whose a serious rival of Anakin's in terms of ability), Siri Tachi (whose a peer of Obi-wan's), Soara Antana (whose a stated "legendary lightsaber virtuoso, who is better than any other Jedi there), one other Jedi Master, and two other Jedi Padawans. Anakin even got injured taking on one of em 1v1.

Yoda even lost one of his Kybuck's to Tuk'ata while wandering around on Korriban, "leaving his heart heavy."

Luke, Jaina, Ben, and Vestara even came across a group of over a dozen Tuk'ata that Ben thinks would've been too much for the four of them, though Luke thinks he, Jaina, and Ben could handle them but not in time to stop Vestara from escaping.

Credit goes to Emperordmb for pointing this out.

This is one feat that was easy for me to repost and contextualise. You already know his other feats such as blowing sabers out of a Jedi Masters hand, ripping doors off their hinges, moving fast enough that a room of Sith couldn't see him, moving fast enough to appear to wield a dozen sabers at once, block a rainstorm for a dozen minutes, producing an impenetrable offense, being skilled enough to counter everything Kas'im could throw at him and blah blah you already know all of this. In strength and speed he matches and perhaps exceeds what Maul and Dooku have done. In skill he is able to match a person who perfected every lightsaber form, to the point where he was able to dominate the guy in a strict lightsaber duel and instantly counter whatever he could do and seize the advantage. His defense is clearly extremely potent and well able to weather what Dooku and Maul can throw at him. And his feats of power such as utter disintegrating opponents, tearing through 30-meter tall blast doors, obliterating the temple of ancients and others put him easily in and above the league of Maul and Dooku. That he could hold his own against them for a scant few seconds is readily apparent.

I'm fine, just a little bored is all.

So you support the very notion I was trying to establish? You simply assumed I meant for some time, despite the fact that I explicitly stated otherwise on multiple occassion. I'm seriously reconsidering just how much you're truly bordering incompetence now.

My wording did not suck. I very clearly said "Bane really just needs to survive a few attacks" and I repeatedly mentioned Zannah and explained her significance in my posts. That you are too lazy to actually read the words I write does no-one any disservice but yourself. And if you actually could recall something someone said more than a few minutes ago you'd remember that I pointed out that I was merely humoring your position and I in no way suggest that Bane would lose to Maul and Dooku, promptly or otherwise.

This thread is interesting.

Bane could power through Dooku just like Anakin did.
Zannah could mind-rape him just like Talzin did.

Not sure if Dathomir is a Dark Side nexus or not. If it is, then Bane's death field and Zannah's tendrils are much more impressive than Dooku owning Ventress.

While I don't wish to add to the already evident Bane wankery that goes on on these forums. I have to disagree that Ventress is a better duelist than Bane.

Ventress is an evidently an accomplished warrior, but I think she falls short of high level mastery. Luminari Unduli described her style as "unrefined, amateurish, sloppy." An obvious use of Dun Moch, but proven true when Dooku absolutely schools her in lightsaber combat.

Darth Bane has received no such slights, and no such embarrassing defeats, and I would find it laughably if anybody claimed Dooku could defeat Bane in such a manner. Instead Bane was trained by one considered among the greatest Sith duelists in the galaxy, and even the greatest lightsaber duelist who ever lived. He was a master of multiple lightsaber forms and his style was not only powerful, but highly refined, fast and transitioned seamlessly from form to form.

In regards to his accomplishments? Before his prime Bane defeated Kas'im, a legendary lightsaber duelist and master of all seven forms. He held off three battle meditation amped Jedi on Tython, one of whom a Jedi weapons master and considered the most skilled lightsaber duelist in the Order, to whom he even managed to outmaneuver. And finally he dismantled the defenses of Darth Zannah, a master of the Soresu form to which she had dedicated herself absolutely to, and even bolstered her defensive ability with a saberstaff.

It is quite obvious that Bane is not only a highly accomplished, master saber duelist, but is also capable of contending with multiple opponents at a time. So Neph is making a more than reasonable comparison with Ventress, an evidently inferior duelist and inferior Force User.

However what ILS and others have failed to prove, is that Dooku and Maul are capable of dismantling Bane-tier duelists in less than a few seconds? You say Neph is talking out of her ass, and yet when has Maul or Dooku ever defeated a duelist of Bane's calibre so swiftly? This seems rather unsubstantiated.

Regardless I don't believe Bane and Zannah are likely to win. For one both Maul and Dooku are intelligent and observant duelists, neither is going to allow Bane to distract them while Zannah starts casting spells, and indeed Bane would have to be far more skilled with a saber and more powerful in the Force to detain both Maul and Dooku, one of them will get past and engage Zannah, and Bane won't be able to stop them.

But in the instance that they do both end up engaging Bane, let's not forget that Maul has an incredibly resilient mind, from which I believed a telepath died merely by looking in to it, and Dooku is a powerful Force user with an extensive knowledge of the Force that easily rivals that off Bane's. Both of them will be of course caught of guard and left vulnerable, but both have the strength to withstand the attack.

Now of course you might argue, "but Bane had specials knowledge!" Well he didn't really, he learnt that there is basically no special knowledge to defend against Sith magic, only good old fashioned willpower.

And even then, Zannah's magic only works on one target, and it leaves her immobile while the spell takes effect, all it would take is for either Maul or Dooku to interrupt her.

So yeah, Zannah's magic will fail and Dooku and Maul will dismantle them.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This thread is interesting.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless I don't believe Bane and Zannah are likely to win. For one both Maul and Dooku are intelligent and observant duelists, neither is going to allow Bane to distract them while Zannah starts casting spells, and indeed Bane would have to be far more skilled with a saber and more powerful in the Force to detain both Maul and Dooku, one of them will get past and engage Zannah, and Bane won't be able to stop them.

But in the instance that they do both end up engaging Bane, let's not forget that Maul has an incredibly resilient mind, from which I believed a telepath died merely by looking in to it, and Dooku is a powerful Force user with an extensive knowledge of the Force that easily rivals that off Bane's. Both of them will be of course caught of guard and left vulnerable, but both have the strength to withstand the attack.

Now of course you might argue, "but Bane had specials knowledge!" Well he didn't really, he learnt that there is basically no special knowledge to defend against Sith magic, only good old fashioned willpower.

And even then, Zannah's magic only works on one target, and it leaves her immobile while the spell takes effect, all it would take is for either Maul or Dooku to interrupt her.

So yeah, Zannah's magic will fail and Dooku and Maul will dismantle them.

Well Dooku is, Maul is kind of an idiot. He's been caught over and over again by his arrogance. I have little doubt that he'll want to fight Bane given his constant need to prove he's the best fighter around. And Bane has the Force powers to hold up both his opponents and lock them down imo. Massive Force Waves, Lightning Storms, Ionic fields, barriers and other tricks could allow him to force both of them to focus on him briefly and have to ignore Zannah for a second or two. Not to mention his sabers abilities. And all it would take is a split-second for one of them to freeze up under Zannah's attack for Bane to lash out with the Force or his lightsaber to take them out of the fight or severely hurt them.

Okay well definitely disagree here. Neither Maul or Dooku have what it takes for resist Zannah's spell, which was more than able to bring Bane to his knee's despite his insane resilience and mental fortitude. Recall that Kaan was able to mentally influence dozens, maybe hundreds of Sith Lords at once and yet PoD Bane laughed off his attempts to affect him. Also both Dooku and Maul have personal shit thats mad jacking them up, Dooku's personal issues with Yoda and other stuff (did you see how nuts he was in DR?) and Maul from being abandoned by Sidious and Savage and Talzin's deaths and some other stuff as well. And Dooku's knowledge doesn't rival Bane's, come on. He has everything from Nadd, Revan and Darzu. Revan and Nadd are two of the most knowledgeable Sith ever. But yeah, it only needs to make them vulnerable.

And Bane's willpower eclipses Dooku and Mauls. He's resisted so much that it's a little absurd. Look at how Dooku was writhing around from Talzin's spell. Remember, Zannah's attack is super fricking painful and these two aren't as good with pain as Bane is.

Zannah will be out of range though, compared to her more melee inclined opponents. She has a better chance of protecting herself than the person she's using her spell on at least.

Also someone brought up the point about the tentacles. Zannah could summon them at which point it's basically game over. Dooku and Maul can't dodge the tentacles and deal with Bane's force attacks at the same time.

Team 1, IMO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Bane's willpower eclipses Dooku and Mauls. He's resisted so much that it's a little absurd.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also someone brought up the point about the tentacles. Zannah could summon them at which point it's basically game over.

Originally posted by Stigma
Huh? Maul "resisted" being cut in half.

Proof she can do it on Dathomir?

By Maul's own admission that was because of techniques that Sidious had taught him, not his willpower.

Is there not a darkside presence there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
By Maul's own admission that was because of techniques that Sidious had taught him, not his willpower.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Is there not a darkside presence there.

Originally posted by Stigma
Huh? Don't remember that. Did he say it outright in TCW?

There is. But then again, we can assume Dooku and Maul get an amp too.

Yeah. I think he also says it in a comic.

If you want. But they can't pull off anything like the tentacles.

Originally posted by Stigma
Huh? Don't remember that. Did he say it outright in TCW?

There is. But then again, we can assume Dooku and Maul get an amp too.

^^^

Good reasoning.

Darths Bane and Zannah do seem to take better advantage of nexus setting then members of Team 2.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
While I don't wish to add to the already evident Bane wankery that goes on on these forums. I have to disagree that Ventress is a better duelist than Bane.

Ventress is an evidently an accomplished warrior, but I think she falls short of high level mastery. Luminari Unduli described her style as "unrefined, amateurish, sloppy." An obvious use of Dun Moch, but proven true when Dooku absolutely schools her in lightsaber combat.

Darth Bane has received no such slights, and no such embarrassing defeats, and I would find it laughably if anybody claimed Dooku could defeat Bane in such a manner. Instead Bane was trained by one considered among the greatest Sith duelists in the galaxy, and even the greatest lightsaber duelist who ever lived. He was a master of multiple lightsaber forms and his style was not only powerful, but highly refined, fast and transitioned seamlessly from form to form.

In regards to his accomplishments? Before his prime Bane defeated Kas'im, a legendary lightsaber duelist and master of all seven forms. He held off three battle meditation amped Jedi on Tython, one of whom a Jedi weapons master and considered the most skilled lightsaber duelist in the Order, to whom he even managed to outmaneuver. And finally he dismantled the defenses of Darth Zannah, a master of the Soresu form to which she had dedicated herself absolutely to, and even bolstered her defensive ability with a saberstaff.

It is quite obvious that Bane is not only a highly accomplished, master saber duelist, but is also capable of contending with multiple opponents at a time. So Neph is making a more than reasonable comparison with Ventress, an evidently inferior duelist and inferior Force User.

However what ILS and others have failed to prove, is that Dooku and Maul are capable of dismantling Bane-tier duelists in less than a few seconds? You say Neph is talking out of her ass, and yet when has Maul or Dooku ever defeated a duelist of Bane's calibre so swiftly? This seems rather unsubstantiated.

Bane is one of the most mediocre duelists in Sith history. Dooku and Maul have fought vastly superior opponents (Mace Windu, Obi Wan Kenobi, Sora Bulq, Qui Gon Jinn, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous). All of these are individuals who would utterly stomp Bane in a lightsaber duel, Bane hasn't even won a duel without being amped by a nexus and most of his opponents are either featless or incompetent.

I feel like Bane & Zannah's amped feats make them very deadly against conventional Force users.

Zannahs tendrils yeah.

Maul and Dooku slaughter really.