Originally posted by NemeBro
It's okay but the world isn't interesting enough to provide context to your actions and bluntly the game is more stat-checky than maybe any Soulslike I've played.Hollow Knight is the best Soulslike. Other good ones include Salt and Sanctuary, Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order, Remnant from the Ashes, Unworthy, Blasphemous, and Code Vein.
As Souls clones, I'd actually put them above Hollow Knight personally, simply for being more pure in their clone-ness.
Code Vein is particularly funny, because everything about it is cringe anime, yet it's so goddamn fun to play. It legitimately might be the best 3D Soulslike ever. Salt and Sanctuary is probably the best 2D one. Opinions vary though.
I haven't played Remnant or Hellpoint yet though.
Originally posted by cdtm
Nemebro, did you trigger any interesting bugs in your plays?I got a strange one where if you send Hollow Knight into phase two while he's in mid air, he drops to the ground like a stone and his polarity seems to be reversed. Like he'll slide along the ground, and his animations are all screwed up like a doll with his strings cut.
Was a freaky experience.
Either it way sucked having to walk. The map is large is enough that I would kinda groan when I needed to go to that area.
Originally posted by cdtm
I have Hellpoint sitting in my GoG library on a giveaway, haven't actually tried it yet because reviews claim the boss fights are pretty disappointing.It does look like an interesting setting though.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's closer to Dark Souls than to Nioh, but it's not really that similar to either. If you've played GOW 2018, it's more like that.
I haven't played Fallen Order, so I can't speak on it. But it does seem like people see a video game with someone swinging a sword and immediately call it a Soulslike.
Metroidvania is suffering from a similar phenomenon. A game makes you backtrack one time to unlock a door and folks immediately scream Metroidvania.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Wait until you get to the ninja fortress place.It's supposed to be a trick-room, hall of mirrors style level, but it's just obnoxious and not fun whatsoever. I guess some folks like it, but getting lost in madhouse stages isn't really my thing.
Nor mine.
My least favorite thing about acclaimed Ninja Gaiden Black were the moments when you were just trying to figure out where the heck to go next. Getting lost isn't fun, it's frustrating, we have GPS for a reason.
Oddly this was never a problem in Hollow Knight. Probably because it was so packed full of secrets you couldn't go two screens without stumbling over something awesome. Plus the maps themselves were so well made getting lost wasn't much of an issue.
Originally posted by StyleTimeHollow Knight diverging from the blueprint so much is what makes it the best Soulslike tbh.
I also disliked Nioh's magic system. I usually play spellcasters in my Souls titles, and it's annoying how few Soulslikes actually make genuine attempts at magic. I'm sure magic can be difficult for a developer, but Salt and Sanctuary and Code Vein pull off magic very well.As Souls clones, I'd actually put them above Hollow Knight personally, simply for being more pure in their clone-ness.
Code Vein is particularly funny, because everything about it is cringe anime, yet it's so goddamn fun to play. It legitimately might be the best 3D Soulslike ever. Salt and Sanctuary is probably the best 2D one. Opinions vary though.
I haven't played Remnant or Hellpoint yet though.
Code Vein has pretty good gameplay and a fantastic class system, but where it falters is level design. The cathedral level in particular is one of the worst I've ever played.
As for Fallen Order, it's Sekiro for babies. Still pretty good though.
Remnant is great.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Wait until you get to the ninja fortress place.It's supposed to be a trick-room, hall of mirrors style level, but it's just obnoxious and not fun whatsoever. I guess some folks like it, but getting lost in madhouse stages isn't really my thing.
I liked the first boss.
Did the tutorial. Was that even an option before? Because it seems like it should have been an option, so you knew targeting at least (Most early deaths were simply by missing the enemy and getting countered.)
Actually went back to the tutorial to quit my game and think on choosing a spirit. I like the fire fox better as a concept, but it only offers "strength", and those tend to be a less useful stat in Souls clones. I bet the shark is the one I want, spirit skill boost.
Fox is cooler though.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Hollow Knight diverging from the blueprint so much is what makes it the best Soulslike tbh.Code Vein has pretty good gameplay and a fantastic class system, but where it falters is level design. The cathedral level in particular is one of the worst I've ever played.
As for Fallen Order, it's Sekiro for babies. Still pretty good though.
Remnant is great.
Absolutely. The Cathedral was trash, specifically the 2nd half. And judging by the trophy stats for completing the level, about 50% of players (PS4) quit playing at that point. It was near Ocarina of Time Water Temple levels of obnoxious.
Fortunately, the rest of the game isn't like that. All we need in a souls clone is some serviceable level design that lets us scratch our Dark Souls itch in between titles.
It's part of why I don't like clones re-inventing the wheel, or getting too fancy. It's okay to be a clone. Just own the clone-ness and your own unique flavor will come out naturally anyway.
I do think Hollow Knight is the more enthralling game, and to be fair, it fuses several different genre tropes, but I just don't rate it as a Soulslike. I know that's a hot take for much of the gaming world, and it's totally fine if they disagree. Just saying how I see it.
It's similar to Dead Cells. I'm not totally comfortable calling it a true Soulslike either. Of course, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, but it's fun to nerd out about it sometimes.
Originally posted by cdtm
Nor mine.My least favorite thing about acclaimed Ninja Gaiden Black were the moments when you were just trying to figure out where the heck to go next. Getting lost isn't fun, it's frustrating, we have GPS for a reason.
Oddly this was never a problem in Hollow Knight. Probably because it was so packed full of secrets you couldn't go two screens without stumbling over something awesome. Plus the maps themselves were so well made getting lost wasn't much of an issue.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I remember frequently getting lost during levels that took place at Itsukushima Shrine. The water-place with the giant slime boss.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I suppose it depends on where you draw the line. In my view, it was never following the Soulslike blueprint. The creators actually talked about this -- you have newer generations that, for them, Dark Souls was their first encounter with certain tropes because they never played the games that inspired it. "Dark Souls" becomes the new word to reference tropes that actually predate the game itself. Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania, nearly from top to bottom. It uses elements from Dark Souls, as well as Zelda II, Paper Mario, Mario, Mega Man, etc, but those are like cherries on top of the Metroidvania sundae. Salt and Sanctuary feels like the reverse, where it's a Soulslike with Metroidvania bits sprinkled on top.Absolutely. The Cathedral was trash, specifically the 2nd half. And judging by the trophy stats for completing the level, about 50% of players (PS4) quit playing at that point. It was near Ocarina of Time Water Temple levels of obnoxious.
Fortunately, the rest of the game isn't like that. All we need in a souls clone is some serviceable level design that lets us scratch our Dark Souls itch in between titles.
It's part of why I don't like clones re-inventing the wheel, or getting too fancy. It's okay to be a clone. Just own the clone-ness and your own unique flavor will come out naturally anyway.
How is classic Zelda much different from a Metroidvania? Both have a heavy emphesis on exploration, both tend to have gear based keys to open new areas.
I actually have more of a Zelda feel to Hollow Knight than I do Metroid, based purely on the whimsical and enchanting look and feel of the environment and characters, and the melody all coming together like a work of art.
I'll leave this here for after your ban expires I guess.
Originally posted by cdtm
How is classic Zelda much different from a Metroidvania? Both have a heavy emphesis on exploration, both tend to have gear based keys to open new areas.I actually have more of a Zelda feel to Hollow Knight than I do Metroid, based purely on the whimsical and enchanting look and feel of the environment and characters, and the melody all coming together like a work of art.
And progress in a Metroidvania isn't necessarily linear. Progress often, in fact, means going back to an earlier area to open new zones within that area. In Zelda, progress usually meant moving beyond earlier areas without ever needing to return to them.
That said, don't forget Metroid isn't the sole creator of tropes in the genre. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was inspired by Zelda, and SOTN is the one that introduced RPG mechanics into the genre. Some folks like separating the Metroid from the Vania, as Metroid doesn't really do RPG stuff. The combat is also a bit different.
For modern examples, Axiom Verge follows Metroid. Bloodstained follows Castlevania.
Edit: I didn't mean to understate Zelda's influence on Hollow Knight. The creators are pretty open about it. Iirc, even the nail being the Knight's main form of offense was supposed to have been based on Link. It just be the 2D aspects that makes people associate it with Metroid. If you change the viewpoint, it would seem pretty Zelda-y.