Originally posted by DARTH POWERThat's a lie.
I really did laugh out loud that you actually thought an "lol" was appropriate there.So what about ROTS Kenobi? Vader fought him as well. So is it confirmed ESB Luke > ROTS Kenobi? "lol"
FYI it's confirmed by the biggest authority of the old canon (Lucas himself) that even ROTJ Luke was only half trained and no match for Vader, forget ESB Luke "lol"
ROTJ Luke absolutely destroyed Vader.
He was holding back the entire ****ing time because he didn't wanna hurt his poor cripple daddy, tbat is EASY to see in ROTJ.
Seriously, Luke stomped him after Vader mentioned Leia.
Originally posted by SunRazerAnd multiple sources have outright confirmed Luke is on par with Vader as a swordsman, so that's a canonical fact.
Yes but what you're not getting is that multiple sources mean squat next to the WOrd of Lucas, as made clear by the Old canon rules putting G-Canon clearly above C-Canon in authority.
It is however possible to make both Lucas and your C-Canon sources align, by logically assuming ROTJ Luke to be a match for Vader in Sabers but No Match for him in Tk. Hence no match for him in All-Out combat.
Though you do seem to be confused on what is Canon. Calling "Legend" sources a Canonical fact for one is incorrect now. Second even under the old canon rules, Lucas's word was given the highest authority (naturally).
Originally posted by Jmanghan
That's a lie.ROTJ Luke absolutely destroyed Vader.
He was holding back the entire ****ing time because he didn't wanna hurt his poor cripple daddy, tbat is EASY to see in ROTJ.
Seriously, Luke stomped him after Vader mentioned Leia.
LOL Who lied? Lucas?
Don't blame the messenger kid. I'm just telling you what Lucas clearly states in the ROTJ Audio Commentary.
...Well, thanks Lucas, for making Luke stomping Vader a total ****ing mystery.
He clearly stomped him in ROTJ once he got serious, Vader got his ass handed to him in about 15 seconds. Luke got pissed off, Vader lost his Saber, and got his ass handed to him, then Sidious tells Luke to kill him, which he could have easily done right then and there.
But whatever, Lucas says its canon.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
...Well, thanks Lucas, for making Luke stomping Vader a total ****ing mystery.He clearly stomped him in ROTJ once he got serious, Vader got his ass handed to him in about 15 seconds. Luke got pissed off, Vader lost his Saber, and got his ass handed to him, then Sidious tells Luke to kill him, which he could have easily done right then and there.
But whatever, Lucas says its canon.
Because Luke was Uber pissed going for the kill whilst Vader... you know... wasn't.
Like I said it could be that Vader is much more powerful in Tk, and could potentially give Luke the Dooku v Kenobi treatment, but in Pure Sabres it could have been much more even. And Vader didn't want to Tk Luke, but just keep goading him into a Saber match instead.
But you can't honestly expect Luke to match Vader's Tk with 4 years of training.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERVader was not afraid to fatally wound Luke, as it showed in ESB.
Because Luke was Uber pissed going for the kill whilst Vader... you know... wasn't.Like I said it could be that Vader is much more powerful in Tk, and could potentially give Luke the Dooku v Kenobi treatment, but in Pure Sabres it could have been much more even. And Vader didn't want to Tk Luke, but just keep goading him into a Saber match instead.
But you can't honestly expect Luke to match Vader's Tk with 4 years of training.
If Vader and ROTJ Luke were so even, Vader would've been able to stand a slight chance.
Instead, Luke stomped him.
He STOMPED him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but what you're not getting is that multiple sources mean squat next to the WOrd of Lucas, as made clear by the Old canon rules putting G-Canon clearly above C-Canon in authority.It is however possible to make both Lucas and your C-Canon sources align, by logically assuming ROTJ Luke to be a match for Vader in Sabers but No Match for him in Tk. Hence no match for him in All-Out combat.
Though you do seem to be confused on what is Canon. Calling "Legend" sources a Canonical fact for one is incorrect now. Second even under the old canon rules, Lucas's word was given the highest authority (naturally).
Sources have only ever stated Luke and Vader were equals as swordsmen, although one referred to Force strength but it probably relates to potential more than power.
I meant Legends canon, or what was once Canon.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
The whole fight, Luke was all "I will not fight you, Father."While Vader was swinging his lightsaber at Luke and saying shit like "Then you will die".
That wasn't the whole fight. That was the middle section. And Luke also says in that section "Your thoughts betray you Father, I feel the good in you, the conflict" clearly suggesting Vader is more conflicted than ever in this fight.
And Luke wasn't winning that middle section.
You can say Luke won the first round putting Vader on his ass (even though being put on your ass is never a definite loss in itself). But that first round had Luke watching the Rebels getting destroyed and his anger all building up. The Emperor and Vader were goading him for ages, making him angry before he lashed out.
The final round had Luke completely lose control.
So yeah I'd say the first and final round where Luke was winning/won, definitely had Luke going for the kill moreso than Vader who was only trying to convert Luke, not destroy him.
Plus notice Vader never once attempted to TK Luke the whole fight. He did in ESB, and does in most his fights, as it's kind of his thing. Surely Luke's TK Prowess could not have been a match for Vader's at that point.