No. She could handle Bane's strength straight up blow for blow (even a two-handed power attack barely staggered her and she recovered nigh-instantly) and her defensive wall is specifically designed around nullifying strength through deflection, the spinning blades redirect attacks instead of meet them head on. Savage pretty much only has strength. He'll leave a gap in his defense at some point and she'll show him her stabs. She's faster and more powerful than he is, she can handle him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't worry, I give you a pass since you jumped into the conversation late.
Except if it's what I think it is, the huge difference is that Savage and Ventress clashed again and we have conclusive proof that Ventress couldn't hit or even make Savage flinch... So there's a difference? No?
Originally posted by Nephthys
No. She could handle Bane's strength straight up blow for blow (even a two-handed power attack barely staggered her and she recovered nigh-instantly) and her defensive wall is specifically designed around nullifying strength through deflection, the spinning blades redirect attacks instead of meet them head on. Savage pretty much only has strength. He'll leave a gap in his defense at some point and she'll show him her stabs. She's faster and more powerful than he is, she can handle him.
I still haven't decided who I think wins, but I don't see this happening with the way Savage actually attacks. You really can't deflect his attacks as well as normal, Ventress' style relied on that and she couldn't do anything. What's more is that it's hard to counterattack when he has the massive size advantage...
Originally posted by Selenial
Except if it's what I think it is, the huge difference is that Savage and Ventress clashed again and we have conclusive proof that Ventress couldn't hit or even make Savage flinch... So there's a difference? No?
Obviously. And I clearly wasn't being serious with my suggestions, I was getting everyone else to disprove Beni's argument.
Zannah wasn't overwhelmed by Bane's strength or pressed in a similar manner to her fight with Sarro. She's clearly vastly improved and is able to handle great strength much better than she was as an apprentice.
Originally posted by Selenial
I still haven't decided who I think wins, but I don't see this happening with the way Savage actually attacks. You really can't deflect his attacks as well as normal, Ventress' style relied on that and she couldn't do anything. What's more is that it's hard to counterattack when he has the massive size advantage...
Well if you watch their fight Ventress never got the chance to deflect his attacks. She's actually disarmed before she does more than dodge him and then she gets sucked into a saberlock. I strongly disagree with you that Savage TOO STRONG to be redirected, Dooku demonstrated that in their training session and if you look Maul deflects his attacks as well. Zannah's style is very good at deflection with the spinning of the blades, if he attacks its just pushed to the side before it threatens her body.
Savage is the same size as Bane and she could counter-attack him. Arguably the size just makes it harder for him to cover his whole body defensively.
Originally posted by NephthysMeh. She was legitimately staggered. She recovered yes, but she was thrown off balance. To say she was barely staggered is to sugar coat it a little I feel. Nor may I add, at any point, did Zannah have an advantage against Bane in that confrontation.
No. She could handle Bane's strength straight up blow for blow (even a two-handed power attack barely staggered her and she recovered nigh-instantly)
Regardless, Savage is not only physically stronger, but he puts more power in his blows. So any one of his attacks has the potential to send Zannah reeling, or put her on the floor.
and her defensive wall is specifically designed around nullifying strength through deflection, the spinning blades redirect attacks instead of meet them head on.Using position, leverage and deflection to nullify strength is all well and good, but Savage can still batter through those kinds of defenses as evidenced against Dooku - a master of such techniques.
Savage pretty much only has strength. He'll leave a gap in his defense at some point and she'll show him her stabs.Offense is not Zannah's forte, I find it unlikely that her offensive techniques were superior or even equal to an individual such as Plo Koon, who was able only to land a superficial blow.
She's faster and more powerful than he is, she can handle him.Not by such a marginal amount to really impact the duel.
Originally posted by NephthysI raised the point because Savage is significantly stronger than Xaj, and by that point Zannah had already achieved mastery of Soresu.
Obviously. And I clearly wasn't being serious with my suggestions, I was getting everyone else to disprove Beni's argument.Zannah wasn't overwhelmed by Bane's strength or pressed in a similar manner to her fight with Sarro. She's clearly vastly improved and is able to handle great strength much better than she was as an apprentice.
So yes, I do believe its still relevant, and I don't believe Bane proof to the contrary.
Originally posted by NephthysBefore Savage had received any kind of formal instruction i.e. the weakest point in his career.
I strongly disagree with you that Savage TOO STRONG to be redirected, Dooku demonstrated that in their training session
and if you look Maul deflects his attacks as well.Zannah's physical strength it totally eclipsed by Maul, and is in fact comparable to Savage's.
I'd also say he is a notably superior duelist
Savage is the same size as Bane and she could counter-attack him. Arguably the size just makes it harder for him to cover his whole body defensively.Savage is actually a little taller than Bane, however height is not indicative of strength, he is evidently more heavily muscled.
Remember Savage wields a saberstaff as well, and is afforded the same defensive benefits.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh. She was legitimately staggered. She recovered yes, but she was thrown off balance. To say she was barely staggered is to sugar coat it a little I feel. Nor may I add, at any point, did Zannah have an advantage against Bane in that confrontation.Regardless, Savage is not only physically stronger, but he puts more power in his blows. So any one of his attacks has the potential to send Zannah reeling, or put her on the floor.
Exactly, meh. She recovered quickly enough that Bane couldn't capitalise on it. So it's irrelevant, Savage isn't doing better than Bane did. Hence why I said she was barely staggered because she was clearly barely inconvenienced by it.
Oh bullocks, Adi Gallia could block his attacks without getting put on her ass, so was Obi-Wan. Ventress matched him in a saberlock. Bane was strong enough to disarm people in one strike, Savage isn't some transcendent powerhouse that's gonna blow Zannah away.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Using position, leverage and deflection to nullify strength is all well and good, but Savage can still batter through those kinds of defenses as evidenced against Dooku - a master of such techniques.
Except he did so because Dooku didn't actually try to deflect him, he foolishly blocked and faceplanted because of it. Zannah's defensive wall will never directly oppose Savage's blade and the rotating saber will push his attacks harmlessly to the side.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Offense is not Zannah's forte, I find it unlikely that her offensive techniques were superior or even equal to an individual such as Plo Koon, who was able only to land a superficial blow.
Unlike Koon, Zannah will be able to weather Savage's attacks and bide her time until he exposes himself. As Gallia, Ventress and Obi-Wan showed, Savage does leave himself partially open. Offense might not be Zannah's forte, but defense isn't Opress' forte either.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not by such a marginal amount to really impact the duel.
She MUUUUUUUUCH more powerful than him, bro. And arguably much faster than him as well. As you probably noticed, the only reason I'm not saying she speedblitzes him is because I'm tired of Bane/Zannah speed arguments.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I raised the point because Savage is significantly stronger than Xaj, and by that point Zannah had already achieved mastery of Soresu.So yes, I do believe its still relevant, and I don't believe Bane proof to the contrary.
Well we don't actually know that Savage is significantly stronger than Zaj, that's an assumption. They are the same size and build and Xaj was BM enhanced. Also Xaj was more using technique and speed along with the BM enhancement than raw power but whatever. It's irrelevant because Zannah is significantly stronger than when she fought Xaj and demonstrated that she can handle Bane's strength even without her defensive wall. When she started going full Soresu, Bane couldn't get through her defense with strength, speed or power. So neither will Savage. And he's much sloppier and less refined than Bane, she'll get to counter-attack him eventually.
You seriously think Savage is better than Bane? That's ridiculous. 😬
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Before Savage had received any kind of formal instruction i.e. the weakest point in his career.
You're missing the point. Additional skill and technique shouldn't have been a factor if we're talking about the power of his attacks. Savage is evidently not too strong to be deflected.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Zannah's physical strength it totally eclipsed by Maul, and is in fact comparable to Savage's.I'd also say he is a notably superior duelist.
Wait, you think Maul is stronger than Savage? LOL. Savage will need more than comparable strength to overpower her.
He isn't, which is what we are trying to ascertain. Zannah is a greater duelist than he is. More powerful, faster and more refined. She's notably more masterful in her technique.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Savage is actually a little taller than Bane, however height is not indicative of strength, he is evidently more heavily muscled.
Uh, no he isn't? Bane is a mountain of muscle, he's massively muscular. And Savage is probably taller because he has horns, factor those in and they're of similar height.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Remember Savage wields a saberstaff as well, and is afforded the same defensive benefits.
Savage isn't a Soresu user.
Originally posted by NephthysThe point is Zannah isn't immune to being staggered and thrown off balance, and considering Savage's blows are stronger than Bane's, he will.
Exactly, meh. She recovered quickly enough that Bane couldn't capitalise on it. So it's irrelevant, Savage isn't doing better than Bane did. Hence why I said she was barely staggered because she was clearly barely inconvenienced by it.
Oh bullocks, Adi Gallia could block his attacks without getting put on her ass, so was Obi-Wan. Ventress matched him in a saberlock. Bane was strong enough to disarm people in one strike, Savage isn't some transcendent powerhouse that's gonna blow Zannah away.I don't recall claiming as much. I recall saying that there is a high probability that Zannah will be staggered or floored during this confrontation. I'd also add that Adi, Kenobi and Ventress have all been overwhelmed by Savage's strength at some point, so there ability to deflect his attacks is a moot point.
Except he did so because Dooku didn't actually try to deflect him, he foolishly blocked and faceplanted because of it. Zannah's defensive wall will never directly oppose Savage's blade and the rotating saber will push his attacks harmlessly to the side.Dooku never came across as foolish to me. Dooku has schooled Savage in the past by deflecting his attacks, and at that point had taught Savage everything he knew. For those reasons I see no reason why Dooku would not apply the same tactics here. No master of Makashi is going to attempt to block an attack from a strength-orientated duelist like Savage head on.
Unlike Koon, Zannah will be able to weather Savage's attacks and bide her time until he exposes himself. As Gallia, Ventress and Obi-Wan showed, Savage does leave himself partially open. Offense might not be Zannah's forte, but defense isn't Opress' forte either.But Plo Koon's failed attempts to penetrate his defense demonstrates his defense is more than adequate, that's the point.
Gallia, Ventress and Kenobi all exploited gaps in Savage's defense using physical attacks, the kind of attack that can be executed quickly and so easily slip past a defense. Especially considering the opponents lightsaber can be simultaneously kept occupied with one's own.
On the other hand the saberstaff is noted to be unwieldy, and to require elaborate flourishes to execute simple moves, Zannah is not going to be able to exploit gaps in Savage's defense with any level of comparable speed.
This is of course assuming Savage gives her an opportunity to attack, the sheer ferocity and strength of Savage's style is designed to prevent that.
Anakin and Kenobi for example, two of the greatest Jedi knights in the Order, were put on the back for a full minute by his onslaught.
Kenobi being a superior Soresu master to Zannah tbh, he'll have her backpedalling the entire time. And that's going to castrate her offense.
She MUUUUUUUUCH more powerful than him, bro. And arguably much faster than him as well. As you probably noticed, the only reason I'm not saying she speedblitzes him is because I'm tired of Bane/Zannah speed arguments.Surey sure.
Well we don't actually know that Savage is significantly stronger than Zaj, that's an assumption. They are the same size and build and Xaj was BM enhanced.Considering that Savage is both a Nightbrother and a alchemically enhanced. I find that unlikely, if so then the Nightsisters did a poor job. But I won't press the point.
You're missing the point. Additional skill and technique shouldn't have been a factor if we're talking about the power of his attacks. Savage is evidently not too strong to be deflected.And yet Dooku says his style is "sloppy", that he has "no technique" and finally that "with the proper training you could become a powerful warrior."
Even for a strength orientated duelist accuracy, timing, and balance remain important. Savage lacked that. After being trained, Dooku attempts a visually identical tactic, and gets slapped down like a punk.
Wait, you think Maul is stronger than Savage? LOL. Savage will need more than comparable strength to overpower her.I said their strength is comparable, learn 2 read lol. And it is for the record, Savage has immensely impressive strength feats that outstrip Zannah and anyone else Savage had faced bar Sidious.
He isn't, which is what we are trying to ascertain. Zannah is a greater duelist than he is. More powerful, faster and more refined. She's notably more masterful in her technique.Your confused, I meant Maul. Maul is Zannah's superior in every way, the point is therefore moot.
Uh, no he isn't? Bane is a mountain of muscle, he's massively muscular. And Savage is probably taller because he has horns, factor those in and they're of similar height.Bane is stated to weigh 120 kilograms as a soldier, 30 kilograms less than Savage. And Zannah notes he's weaker than Xaj:
"Zannah realised he was even taller and more heavily muscled than Bane."
Again, Savage's muscles and bone density were enhanced with Nightsister magic, and even prior to transformation he could smash rock with his bare firsts. Neither Xaj's nor Bane's unaugmented muscles compare.
Savage isn't a Soresu user.I'm talking about the larger surface area that a saberstaff provides, it accommodates for his size.
Originally posted by NephthysHmm...
MY FAVOURITE ACTIVITIES INCLUDE EATING BANE'S DICK EATING ZANNAH'S MUFF DEBATING BANE AND ZANNAH'S SUPERIORITY WITH TEENAGERS AND GETTING REALLY ANGRY WHEN I DON'T WIN AND THEN SOMETIMES HAVE SEX WITH MY BANE BODY PILLOW
After considering both arguments carefully, I'll need to go with Beni on this one. I think Neph is losing his edge these days. 👆