Originally posted by darthgoober
Stops at 1... hard. Gamora, Mantis, or Moondragon could all make a match of it h2h individually(yeah that's right, I said it) even if they were on the loosing end, as a group they'd absolutely kick his ass.
I think as a group they can take him, but individually, the only female on that list that can give him troubles i Mantis. Gamora and MD are overrated, IMO.
Originally posted by Zack M
I think as a group they can take him, but individually, the only female on that list that can give him troubles i Mantis. Gamora and MD are overrated, IMO.
Moondraon underwent the exact same training Mantis did and proved her equal/supperior h2h. Her skills just aren't showcased as much because writers focus on her telepathy/telekinesis.
Originally posted by Zack M
I'm talking about cosmic Mantis. When did MD beat cosmic Mantis?
She didn't gain any skills as the Celestial Madonna, she gained things like the ability to fly and shoot energy blasts. And I'm all but positive that she lost lost to Moondragon after she had those powers.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Gamora's got superhuman attributes, unbreakable bones, and a healing factor on him. He miht be able to beat her due to the plot device nature of his karate, but he'd have to work at it.Moondraon underwent the exact same training Mantis did and proved her equal/supperior h2h. Her skills just aren't showcased as much because writers focus on her telepathy/telekinesis.
She didn't gain any skills as the Celestial Madonna, she gained things like the ability to fly and shoot energy blasts. And I'm all but positive that she lost lost to Moondragon after she had those powers.
All those don't matter when you have someone who can find weak points in objects (Interon, DC's Adimantium). Val is VASTLY more skilled than those three women.
Originally posted by Zack M
All those don't matter when you have someone who can find weak points in objects (Interon, DC's Adimantium). Val is VASTLY more skilled than those three women.
Proof that he's VASTLY more skilled? I mean if you're counting off the wall feats that aren't actually h2h techniques as a reflection of "skill" then stuff like telepathy and such would also qualify since Moondragon and Mantis got it through their training. It's like the difference between Iron Fist and Shang Chi. Iron Fist is better at chi related stuff and can do things that Shang can't, but Shang is more skilled at h2h. KK has more off the walls techniques at his disposal, but that doesn't mean he's actually vastly more skilled h2h.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Proof that he's VASTLY more skilled? I mean if you're counting off the wall feats that aren't actually h2h techniques as a reflection of "skill" then stuff like telepathy and such would also qualify since Moondragon and Mantis got it through their training.
He's mastered all the known MA's in the universe. Had the upper hand fighting Batman (A well ESTABLISHED MA, and one of the BEST in comics), even taking his utility belt from him, while he just woke up from a coma. He can hide his thoughts (Did from Saturn Girl, she admitted it was hard for her to probe his mind), and she is a better TP than either Mantis or Moondragon.
Val is able to SPAR with Kryptonians AND Daxamites at SUPER SPEED. Show me feats that are equal with the two women.
Originally posted by Zack M
He's mastered all the known MA's in the universe. Had the upper hand fighting Batman (A well ESTABLISHED MA, and one of the BEST in comics), even taking his utility belt from him, while he just woke up from a coma. He can hide his thoughts (Did from Saturn Girl, she admitted it was hard for her to probe his mind), and she is a better TP than either Mantis or Moondragon.Val is able to SPAR with Kryptonians AND Daxamites at SUPER SPEED. Show me feats that are equal with the two women.
Gamora has mastered 83.4% of the MAs in the known universe. And given that after a certain point things become a bit redundant I'd say that the lip service provided in regards to KKs skill doesn't really qualify as a VAST difference in skill. And there's a big difference between being unable to probe someone's mind and being able to mindblast them.
Mantis has one shotted Thor and tripped the Runner moving at speed and knocked around the Obliterator. Gamora has given a fight to B&T Thor(seriously, she seemed to be doing better against him than anyone else), beaten a Thanos clone, and knocked around guys like Maxam and Drax multiple times BEFORE her upgrade in Annihilation.
As I said, I can see the plot device nature of his space karate giving him the win against any one of them(though I'm unconvinced it would be definite), but any of the three could damn sure make him work for it.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Gamora has mastered 83.4% of the MAs in the known universe. And given that after a certain point things become a bit redundant I'd say that the lip service provided in regards to KKs skill doesn't really qualify as a VAST difference in skill. And there's a big difference between being unable to probe someone's mind and being able to mindblast them.Mantis has one shotted Thor and tripped the Runner moving at speed and knocked around the Obliterator. Gamora has given a fight to B&T Thor, beaten a Thanos clone, and knocked around guys like Maxam and Drax multiple times BEFORE her upgrade in Annihilation.
As I said, I can see the plot device nature of his space karate giving him the win, but any of the three could damn sure make him work for it.
I kind of agree on the redundancy of it all, but at least Val straight up had the upper hand on one of the best MA's in comics, period. IIRC, Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamorra. And knowing more MA's, especially alien MA can give you an advantage. Just look at Batman One Million and the alien MA where he learned to develop a mental attack to capture Batman's soul. Some can be highly useful and give someone the complete upper hand over someone. Has Gamorra or Mantis beaten someone who is high on the MA pole? Val has, and that is how I'm gauging skill.
Val has similar speed feats. He eventually grabbed Barry Allen's future relatives (cousins?).
Originally posted by Zack M
I kind of agree on the redundancy of it all, but at least Val straight up had the upper hand on one of the best MA's in comics, period. IIRC, Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamorra. And knowing more MA's, especially alien MA can give you an advantage. Just look at Batman One Million and the alien MA where he learned to develop a mental attack to capture Batman's soul. Some can be highly useful and give someone the complete upper hand over someone. Has Gamorra or Mantis beaten someone who is high on the MA pole? Val has, and that is how I'm gauging skill.Val has similar speed feats. He eventually grabbed Barry Allen's future relatives (cousins?).
Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamora because she literally turned her head and stopped focusing on him due to the Hulk and Drax crashing into the ground a few feat away... EVERYONE is vulnerable to getting tagged with a sucker shot. And Moondragon has beaten Cap. Mind you, Cap's super soldier serum was screwing up but since MD isn't super human physically all that really would have done is make it closer to a "equal bodies" match. And yes, any of those alien martial arts COULD be helpful, my point is that such lip service isn't enough to imply a VAST difference in skill. I have no problem saying that he's more skilled, it's the idea that he'd just outright kick her ass that I'm taking issue with.
I know he has similar feats. Hell I acknowledge the fact that he prob has more numerous and better feats. But there's a difference between being better and being so much better that your opponent can't even make a fight of it when they also have abilities that you lack which all 3 of these ladies do.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Wolverine got the upper hand on Gamora because she literally turned her head and stopped focusing on him due to the Hulk and Drax crashing into the ground a few feat away... EVERYONE is vulnerable to getting tagged with a sucker shot. And Moondragon has beaten Cap. Mind you, Cap's super soldier serum was screwing up but since MD isn't super human physically all that really would have done is make it closer to a "equal bodies" match. And yes, any of those alien martial arts COULD be helpful, my point is that such lip service isn't enough to imply a VAST difference in skill. I have no problem saying that he's more skilled, it's the idea that he'd just outright kick her ass that I'm taking issue with.I know he has similar feats. Hell I acknowledge the fact that he prob has more numerous and better feats. But there's a difference between being better and being so much better that your opponent can't even make a fight of it when they also have abilities that you lack.
Not Val. Pre-Zero Emerald Empress (One of the deadliest assassins in the universe) was trying to ambush Val, but Val heard her heart beat several yards away or whatever.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4101287-kk+v+emerald+empress+.jpg
Either way, I'd say Val is more skilled.
Originally posted by Zack M
Not Val. Pre-Zero Emerald Empress (One of the deadliest assassins in the universe) was trying to ambush Val, but Val heard her heart beat several yards away or whatever.https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4101287-kk+v+emerald+empress+.jpg
Either way, I'd say Val is more skilled.
And I'd say Val is more skilled too, but not so much more skilled that any of the 3 couldn't give him one Hell of a fight h2h. By the same token, Iron Fist would really make Shang win in a fight without Chi Manipulation before he went down.
Originally posted by Zack M
Runner isn't as fast as Wally, though. Until I see Gamora or Mantis fight/defeat established MA's, I'll say KK takes a comfortable majority from any of the three.
