Goku and Frieza question
the guidebooks all credit supersaiyan goku with a power level of 150 million during the namek arc and 100% frieza with a power level of 120 million. but this presumes they were at full power at the time... but given all the damage they'd soaked beforehand, were they really still that powerful?
I just had this discussion elsewhere not long ago. Here's my opinion(sorry, it's a bit breathy):
It was stated that Goku was significantly weakened after using a KKx20 Kamehameha...
Gohan: "Dad's ki... It's dropped by a lot...":
http://i.imgur.com/eK9nX8j.jpg
Goku: "[Freeza's] right... I have used up a lot of power...":
http://i.imgur.com/5iyUlTm.jpg
Freeza also noted that he was weakened after being struck by the Genki Dama...
Freeza: "Even I thought that one was going to kill me... I, the mighty Freeza, nearly died! [...] Even with my injuries, you're still nothing to me!!!":
http://i.imgur.com/8keLQ2T.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N7jblwa.jpg
So yeah, Goku was probably weakened a bit more than Freeza, given the mega-ass-beating he had endured beforehand, but they were both still weakened by a significant margin prior to reaching 100% and SSJ, respectively.
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That being said, Freeza's 100% form has always been treated as(and looked like) a separate transformation all together--much like Super Saiyan Grade 1 compared to Super Saiyan Grade 3/USSJ(minus the speed drawbacks, obviously.) With that in mind: when Freeza transformed/powered up into higher levels, all damage he sustained in his previous form(s) was instantly healed. Gohan noted such when Freeza transformed into his 3rd form...
Gohan: "The damage [Freeza] took from Piccolo-san is healed, too!":
http://i.imgur.com/EbKOsDt.jpg
IOW: the injuries/damage Freeza sustained from the Genki Dama were most likely undone when he went 100%.
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To solidify this point even further is the sheer amount of times it was stated that Freeza was fighting at his absolute peak when he reached 100%...
Freeza: "From this point on, I'll be fighting you at my 100% FULL power!":
http://i.imgur.com/4WxSSbm.jpg
Goku: "I'm finally going to see him at MAXIMUM power...":
http://i.imgur.com/MXST0vG.jpg
Goku: "...A chance to see the most powerful fighter in the universe at his BEST.":
http://i.imgur.com/6ttMen3.jpg
Goku: "I will fight Freeza at FULL power... And beat him!":
http://i.imgur.com/OG2sMFa.jpg
Goku: "I'll let you reach MAXIMUM power, Freeza... So I can take you down at your ABSOLUTE BEST, and have no regrets as a warrior.":
http://i.imgur.com/TuP6nIK.jpg
Freeza: "You wanted my FULL power, and now here I am...":
http://i.imgur.com/iFalQVx.jpg
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In a nutshell, it wouldn't have been repeatedly stated that Freeza was using his maximum power, if he wasn't using his maximum power. If his power was intended to have been neutered to any extent, we would have undoubtedly been made aware of such(Toriyama has no problem letting us know when characters are weakened.)
IOW: the power levels listed in the canon Daizenshuu are probably correct--100% Freeza=120m. And since SSJ Goku was demonstrably superior to 100% Freeza, I can only assume the Daizenshuu got his PL right as well--SSJ Goku=150m.
How was Goku still that powerful, despite being significantly weakened by Freeza's ruthless melee beforehand, you ask? Well, I can only assume that, much like Freeza, he was also inextricably rejuvenated upon transforming into a SSJ for the first time... I just really don't think that Toriyama intended either of them to be functioning at anything less than their unadulterated peaks, considering their battle marked the crescendo of the Namek saga. /shrug
Originally posted by cdtm👆
Makes sense.In a related thread, Oozoru Vegeta, on the other hand, most definately wasn't 180,000, given that artificial moon took a noticeable amount out of his 18k pl, according to Goku. (Not to mention whatever the Galic Gun and beating took out of him)
Vegeta was nowhere near his peak by the time he transformed into an Oozaru.
The combination of energy Vegeta spent mustering his Galick Gun + the damage he sustained from his h2h battle with Goku + the damage he sustained from being directly struck by Goku's KKx4 Kamehameha, had already weakened him(as noted by King Kai):
http://i.imgur.com/zg4sW6z.jpg
Vegeta then stated his power would further decrease when he manifested the artificial moon:
http://i.imgur.com/OaMBydZ.jpg
Indeed, Goku confirmed that his power did decrease after doing so:
http://i.imgur.com/d93tISw.jpg
*And judging by Vegeta's huffing and puffing in the above scan, manifesting that energy ball weakened him significantly.
So yeah, Vegeta was nowhere near his 100% PL of 18,000 when he transformed, meaning his Oozaru PL was nowhere near 180,000. Logically, his PL had been cut in half at the very least--which means he'd have a PL around 90,000 as an Oozaru. Either way, his power in that form was still large enough to leave Gohan/Krillin quaking in their boots:
http://i.imgur.com/i0KTM9C.jpg
...So it was definitely WAY beyond the 32,000 they'd sensed from Goku when he used KKx4. /shrug
Originally posted by cdtm
Makes sense.In a related thread, Oozoru Vegeta, on the other hand, most definately wasn't 180,000, given that artificial moon took a noticeable amount out of his 18k pl, according to Goku. (Not to mention whatever the Galic Gun and beating took out of him)
Originally posted by cdtmi think goku wins
Makes sense.In a related thread, Oozoru Vegeta, on the other hand, most definately wasn't 180,000, given that artificial moon took a noticeable amount out of his 18k pl, according to Goku. (Not to mention whatever the Galic Gun and beating took out of him)
I think it makes a lot of sense that Goku's full power would have been 150 mil back then. However, and this is supported by the fact that he and Frieza were basically equals until Frieza's ki started dropping, I think that Goku was probably extremely weakened by the beating Freiza gave him before. He could barely even stand before he went SSJ. I would honestly say he was probably at 120 mil by the time Freiza went 100%. But Freiza has healed from transforming, every time he's transformed. None of the SSJ forms heal you.
Great ape obviously heals you, but SSJ does not. This is probably why 100% Frieza was able to do things like overpower SSJ Goku's kamehameha wave, and fight him evenly, for as long as he did. Goku just maintained his power, and outlasted Freiza.
Frieza gave Goku a small fight when he was at Super Saiyan. When a more powerful Frieza faced Trunks, it was a stomp. Then we see the same Goku (that was healed facing the same Trunks who fought a more powerful Frieza stalemate Trunks with a finger. It's obvious imo that Frieza didn't fight a fully developed/powered Super Saiyan. New to the Super Saiyan argument doesn't hold here. The reason I'm saying that is, we've seen a lot of transformations and we've seen people get accustomed to those powers right away and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is a prime example of this. Goku was not at full power when he faced Frieza.
Originally posted by carver9
Frieza gave Goku a small fight when he was at Super Saiyan. When a more powerful Frieza faced Trunks, it was a stomp. Then we see the same Goku (that was healed facing the same Trunks who fought a more powerful Frieza stalemate Trunks with a finger. It's obvious imo that Frieza didn't fight a fully developed/powered Super Saiyan. New to the Super Saiyan argument doesn't hold here. The reason I'm saying that is, we've seen a lot of transformations and we've seen people get accustomed to those powers right away and Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is a prime example of this. Goku was not at full power when he faced Frieza.
I mostly agree with this.
Goku's 150mil PL was not his max PL possible, at that time, imo. He was battle damaged, battle worn, and energy drained from his fight up to that point with Frieza. His wounds did not heal, either, when he powered up. He was still looking scruffy (the artistic expression of "battle damage" in fighting mangas). The 50x boost likely still applies. But this also explains why a unbattle worn Trunks easily dispatched a much stronger version of Frieza on earth: neither of them were greatly worn out.
Also, Frieza was not at a true 100% when he powered up all the way, as well. He still had battle damage in his final form when he came back around from his spirit bomb adventure...which I believe included part of his tail.
Also, when Trunks went SSJ against Mecha-Freeza, Gohan stated that his chi was the SAME as Goku's... In fact, Gohan originally thought that Trunks was Goku, because his ki was so identical:
IOW, SSJ Trunks=SSJ Goku(on Namek.) This is all aside from the fact that Mecha-Freeza was heavily suppressed. I'd say he was using around 50% of his power... 70% at the absolute most.
Originally posted by carver9
Where did you get that Frieza power was suppressed?
Originally posted by NemeBro👆
I don't remember who, but someone stated that Freeza can get stronger than he is now when they felt his Ki. Galan's a nerd who probably has the scan.
Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's that powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this..!":
http://i.imgur.com/yKMqwCl.jpg
And since Gohan was one of the few beings still alive on Namek when Freeza used 100% power, his word on the matter is pretty irrefutable.
There's also Mecha-Freeza's petite stature:
We know that he starts bulking up when he uses more than 70% power. That aside, Freeza came to earth under the impression that the most powerful being there was Vegeta(who *might* have had a PL in the low millions)--he didn't plan on Goku arriving for a few hours. That said, he would have had NO reason to be accessing the higher percentages of his power(he did like to conserve energy, after all.) Tbh, it makes more sense for him to be using a very low percentage of his power, like he initially was on Namek(~3%.) I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
Using SSJ Trunks vs. Mecha Freeza is a very faulty analogy.Freeza was outright stated to be immensely suppressed when he arrived on earth, and we were given NO reason to assume he wasn't still suppressed when Trunks killed him.
If you delete that single sentence from my post, my point is still not changed.
I'll post it again to remove the offending sentence:
Goku's 150mil PL was not his max PL possible, at that time, imo. He was battle damaged, battle worn, and energy drained from his fight up to that point with Frieza. His wounds did not heal, either, when he powered up. He was still looking scruffy (the artistic expression of "battle damage" in fighting mangas). The 50x boost likely still applies.Also, Frieza was not at a true 100% when he powered up all the way, as well. He still had battle damage in his final form when he came back around from his spirit bomb adventure...which I believe included part of his tail.
But, you're right, Gohan really did say that about Mecha Frieza. 👆 That Mecha Frieza really wasn't powered up.
Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself. /shrug
On another note, I did see that 50% number show up somewhere else with a justification. I'll see if I can find it.
BRB...
Edit - I couldn't find it. A better argument can be made that Frieza is sitting at 2% or something (whatever he was when he first transformed into his final form).
Yes, Freeza still looked physically damaged when he went 100%. However, his old physical wounds don't always get healed when he transforms. For example, Krillin used a Kienzan to lop-off the tip of 2nd form Freeza's tail:
http://i.imgur.com/eCDc3le.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7dXgIuD.jpg
But when Freeza transformed into his 3rd/Xeno form, that portion of his tail was still missing:
http://i.imgur.com/h5Ozg1h.jpg
Despite that, Gohan still stated that all damage Freeza received from his battle with Piccolo had been healed when he transformed:
http://i.imgur.com/EbKOsDt.jpg
...And since the physical damage from his battle with Piccolo was still present, Gohan must have been referring to Freeza's energy-reserves being fully restored.
I guess my point is that Freeza can look injured, but still be at full power. That, coupled with the sheer number of times it was stated that he was fighting Goku "at his absolute best", coupled with Freeza not mentioning that he was weakened, leads me to believe he was fighting at his true 100%. /shrug
As for Goku: it's hard(er) to say. You believe his SSJ PL was 150m, which means you think his base PL was 3m when he transformed(remember, the SSJ multiplier is 50*base.) In that case, he couldn't have been weakened, because we know for a fact that his base PL against Freeza=3m--and that was when Goku was fresh... But we know that Goku was weakened(and significantly so) before he transformed, so it seems like a huge inconsistency, imo. Regardless, I agree that a PL of 150m on Namek is accurate. 👆
Anywho, if you think Goku's SSJ power was significantly weakened on Namek, then it implies he is a lot more powerful than SSJ Trunks when at full power, given Gohan's statement that SSJ Trunks' ki was equal to Goku's(on Namek)... And I'm not sure if I can believe that. Imo, Trunks and Goku were meant to be equals when they met on earth. /shrug
