Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Started by Nai44 pages

Lightsaber ability

But of course, maybe this contest will be decided not by the strength in the Force of the contestants, but with the lightsaber skill the two Sith Lords have to offer. Kun, even in his apprentice days is already a "master swordsman" and the best lightsaber duelist Vodo has trained in 600 years. His most notable feat is, probably, his stalemate against Ulic Qel-Droma, who inspired respect even in his most notorious enemies ("Jedi Vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force", p.127):

Sylvar, at that point in time, absolutely hated Ulic Qel-Droma, yet, she still regarded him as the greatest Jedi of his era. And that was before he took the path to the Dark Side and became an even more formidable combatant. But before we discuss Ulic, let us have a look at Kun's weapon and style. As we all know, Kun utilized a saber stuff. Darth Maul, the other famous user of the weapon, was so kind to share his thoughts on that lightsaber design with us:

"Maul raised his own weapon, the double-bladed lightsaber, and triggered the power control. Twin lances of pure energy boiled forth, hissing and crack-ling in crimson loops that began and ended at the two flux apertures on either end of the device. Any Jedi Knight could wield a single-bladed lightsaber; only a master fighter could use the weapon first designed by the legendary Dark Lord Exar Kun millennia ago. Unless one was in perfect attunement with it, the weapon could be as deadly to the user as to the opponent." - Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Emphasis mine.
I'm going to assume, that this thoughts on the design spawn from Maul's thoughts rather than being information given by the narrator of the story himself. Still, Maul muses that one needs to be a master of lightsaber combat to handle the weapon, and – on top of that – it needs "perfect attunement" with it, not to become a liability for its wielder.

"Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force" describes the nature of the weapon an its use in combat quite clearly (p.107 / 108):

With more detail to be found in the "Book of Sith" (p.85):

While putting emphasis on the fact, that the weapon is difficult to handle, this likewise discribes how it is used. Notice that Exar Kun's style to wield the lightsaber (one-handed, fast) is fundamentally different from the style described here. In addition, Kun can adjust the length and intensity of the weapon on the fly, making him very possibly the least predictable opponent one can face in a lightsaber duel. And since the particular points have been argued here, let me leave my 2 cents about Kun's strength and speed:

Strength

Even at the beginning of his career, Exar Kun seemed to have been rather strong:

I don't know how many lightsaber duels you have seen, in which the opponents clashed with such brutal force, that the sound could have been heared over the distance of kilometers, but Sylvar and Exar can definitely do the job. And their duel ends in a rather special fashion:

Notice that Sylvar is strong enough to put her claws through Exar Kun's helmet, shattering it in the process. And then Kun, empowered by his anger, physically overpowers her. Kun's next "strength feat" would be his stalemate with Ulic Qel-Droma, who is quite the powerhouse in terms of physical strength. Here we have a picture of three Jedi trying to hold Ulic down, which gives them some difficulty.

This is quite impressive for Ulic's part on his own. However, one of those Jedi (the middle one), happens to be Qrrrl Toq, who is quite the extraordinary type when it comes to physical strength:

So the guy can just press five human males to a wall, while those are leaving the ground (see feet in the picture) with a rather large piece of metal – one-handed, while not particularly caring about what he does, casually cutting them down with the lightsaber in his other hand. Clearly some superhuman demonstration of strength. Not that Ulic himself was incapable of similary feats on his own:

Tossing a Mandalorian in full armor around like a ragdoll, using only one hand? No problem for Ulic. The last time I've seen somebody overpowering people that way, it was Darth Vader, aided by his mechanical limbs. Of course, Kun appears to be rather indimidating physically as well, given his "imposing figure" (see above) and his own demonstration of strength:

Destroying a Sith amulet with his fists might not seem that impressive, unless you think about the fact, that those things are crafted to ensure the survival of the knowledge stored within. It's also rather telling that Kun would "sacrifice" such an object. He probably wouldn't have done so if it had to offer new knowledge for him.

And then, there is this little incident here:

Kun, apparently, puts his fingers through the skull of the Chancellor and then lifts him up into the air, using him as some sort of hand-puppet, while the weight of the alien being sustained by his fingers alone. Not too shabby, even if it isn't compareably to the feats above.

Speed

I've already provided a "speed feat" for Kun, although I have mentioned myself, that it probably isn't the most impressive demonstration of Force speed. Yet, you might watch Ulic Qel-Droma (Exar Kun's equal in terms of lightsaber combat) in action:

When being confronted with Warb Null and five soldierst of the Naddist Cult...

...Ulic's reaction looks like that:

So let me point that out for you: The two brighter spots in the middle of the circle of Ulic's blade are the two missing soldiers. So Ulic hacks five soldiers to pieces in split seconds, indicated by the fact, that he manages to cut two of them down, before the weapon of his previous victim is even on its way to the ground. I'd say, that is even faster than Sidious "speed blitz", that – according to the "Revenge of the Sith"-novelization – looked like this:

"Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps ofthe horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbledfrom his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head."... hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still." - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Emphasis mine.
This is what happens between Sidious hitting Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar. Kit Fisto speaks the name of his fallen comrade, the corpse does collapse, the onlookers notice the sigh escaping from the decapitated body and then Kolar is hit. Ulic kills two people before the guy he killed first can drop his weapon...

I hope it is clear enough now, why I don't see Sidious winning this.

Nai just crushed so badly some countries consider it rape.

Will Temp live up to the counter... mmm

Now this is interesting.

Dang, Nai made a beautiful rebuttal. Hmmm, Exar Kun beating ROTS Palpatine is becoming more and more likely.

😐 Lol no.

His argument certainly solidifies Kun's badassness though. 👆

I really hope there comes a time when people accept Palpatine is King Ommin level.

I really hope there doesn't. 👆

Originally posted by Nai

The fact of the matter is, that SunRazor still can't prove Sidious is faster than Kun. This is an assumption based on Sidious' speed feats and a complete disregard for the idea that Kun, being the most powerful force user of his era, would have access to similar force enchancement in combat. The quote NewGuy01 has brought to the table was adressed in the precise way I would have adressed it: The novel version of the fight contradicts the higher level canon of the TCW episode, hence being a complete non-issue.

Honestly I don't get why people keep bringing that up. Except that's how they would have liked the final episode to play out.

But it didn't. End of. People need to accept that and move on.

[quote]Temp
I don't recall anyone among us in this thread seriously contending that there's no way Sheev can lose this. Anyone can beat anybody under the proper circumstances, after all. It's just that one side believes the Emperor has probability on his side to various degrees.

Nai
Sure thing. You may have missed that:

[quote]SunRazer
Palpatine turns Kun into a blind, deaf, mute and quadriplegic slave.

Translation: "The probability is on Sidious' side." 😉 [/quote][/quote]

Pretty sure he was just cracking a joke, as posters are wont to do on occasion. If the remark offended you that much, why not ask him to clarify? mmm

No more Spader in Nai's profile pic or signature. I suddenly feel less inclined to listen to him

Well he may be a heretic and unjustly opposed to Sheev's unimpeachable glory, but at least Nai correctly recognizes the appeal of Alan Shore.

You young'uns with your OMG blacklist rox can eff off. uhuh

I'm older than you.

Maybe in British years.

You americans stole your years from us.

Careful, sir. I won't tolerate such libelous remarks. Whereas you oppressors measure your calendars in days, Americans measure their years in freedom.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Will Temp live up to the counter... mmm

Apparently not.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Pretty sure he was just cracking a joke, as posters are wont to do on occasion. If the remark offended you that much, why not ask him to clarify? mmm

An ant does not offend a boot.

Originally posted by The Merchant
I really hope there comes a time when people accept Palpatine is King Ommin level.

*Freedon Nadd empowered Ommin level

Let's not low ball for the sake of low balling now :maybe

You won't be able to bait a rebuttal out of me. You've already made it clear that you think me too biased and too stupid to create an effective response, which does make me wonder why you even want one.

Maybe someone cleverer and more objective will come along, tho. excellent

Also, Loki was a pretty ineffective baddie in TA. I'd suggest Ronan or Alexander Pierce as a Marvel villain spirit animal. 👍

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You won't be able to bait a rebuttal out of me. You've already made it clear that you think me too biased and too stupid to create an effective response, which does make me wonder why you even want one.

What makes you even think I want one? I don't care. But as long, as you contribute nothing to the topic of the thread while you keep posting, I will happily point out your seeming inability to do the job. Problem?


Maybe someone cleverer and more objective will come along, tho. excellent

Maybe. But probably just to agree with me.


Also, Loki was a pretty ineffective baddie in TA. I'd suggest Ronan or Alexander Pierce as a Marvel villain spirit animal. 👍 [/B]

Ronan was just as ineffective as Loki was. Even more so. At least Loki had the decency to get his ass kicked by the Hulk, while Ronan - technically - lost a dance battle. And Pierce underestimated Nick Fury ffs...

I thought you'd figure out that I used the Loki picture because I paraphrased him. 🤨