Re: DBZ: 10 years later sequence...
Originally posted by john allerdyce
Do you think the 10 years later sequence at the end of DBZ featuring Uub will stay as is, or do you think it will be retconned in light of the new movies and TV series?I only ask because it seems like Kid Buu level power has become almost entirely irrelevant these days.
Toriyama is known to simply forget older stuff, so I'd consider it gone.
Originally posted by AuraAngelI don't think Kaioshin are alerted every time a planet is destroyed. If that were the case, then Boo wouldn't have been able to destroy hundreds of planets in a years-long rampage before the 5 original Kaioshin intervened. Remember, they operate in a universal(and beyond) capacity. A planet getting destroyed here and there is inconsequential in the scope of things. /shrug
Freeza could destroy planets and Super seems to imply that the Kaioshin see it when it happens. Idk why he knows so little about Beerus though.
Tbh, I don't think the Kaioshin paid much attention to mortal affairs until the threat in question superseded the ability of their underlings(ie. the galactic Kaio and Dai Kaio) to handle. The Godly 'chain of command' is in place for a reason, after all.
Originally posted by AuraAngelNah, it was just 39 years. That's how Beerus has interacted with Freeza and King Vegeta.
Maybe the 39 years is in their time and it was really like 39 million years.
Originally posted by cdtmI don't know about Vegeta, but Toriyama did come up with Goku's original SSJ4 design:
On the other hand, I could totally believe Toriyama approved Vegeta's ridiculous SSJ4 look, because of how much he hates the character. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think Kaioshin are alerted every time a planet is destroyed. If that were the case, then Boo wouldn't have been able to destroy hundreds of planets in a years-long rampage before the 5 original Kaioshin intervened. Remember, they operate in a universal(and beyond) capacity. A planet getting destroyed here and there is inconsequential in the scope of things. /shrugTbh, I don't think the Kaioshin paid much attention to mortal affairs until the threat in question superseded the ability of their underlings(ie. the galactic Kaio and Dai Kaio) to handle. The Godly 'chain of command' is in place for a reason, after all.
Nah, it was just 39 years. That's how Beerus has interacted with Freeza and King Vegeta.
I don't know about Vegeta, but Toriyama did come up with Goku's original SSJ4 design:
He did???
So this is inaccurate?
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_4
The Super Saiyan 4 form was designed by Toei Animation's character designer Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. The unique characteristics of the form makes it separate from the core Super Saiyan line of transformations.[5]
Edited: Googling around now, and came up with this board convo. Haven't read it all yet, but:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15927
[quote]For GT, all I did was just come up with the title, design the initial main cast and some of the machines, and also do a few images. However, I was able to rest easy handing things over to the excellent staff, who had continued on DragonBall for all this time. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is amazingly skilled, and mastered the peculiarities of my pictures in no time at all, to the point where there were even times when I couldn't tell whether I had drawn a certain character design, or if he had. For instance, one of Nakatsuru-kun's designs is "Super Saiyan 4", which appears in GT, and the picture above is a portrait that I drew looking off it. Did I draw it well?
So it's misleading to refer to that sketch as Toriyama's "SSj4 design" as if it were analogous to the design sketches he drew for some of the movie villains, since he had no role in designing this character. It's just a sketch of SSj4 Goku that Toriyama drew years after GT ended.[/quote]
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Indeed. Vegeta is Toriyama's greatest character in terms of development.Vegeta was for a long time a terrible person. He turned good-ish but when Goku made his dick feel tiny he went out of his way to kill innocent people. Why should Toriyama reward him for anything?
Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.
The main was basically recreated to be pure evil like his father. At the beginning he was that villain, he choose to change into a better person not only for himself but for Gohan.
Piccolo basically became a good person through good development.
And unlike Vegeta, he didn't whine and moan for more power because someone else was stronger than him, he just trained more. And he sure as hell didn't put the Earth and the Universe in danger just because he was jealous.
Hell, the shit Vegeta did in the Buu saga proved to me, no matter what, Vegeta is a shitty character.
Piccolo had no family on Earth, yet he still protected it, where as Vegeta had a wife and son, yet he willingly give himself to Babidi's control just for power.
He killed a bunch of innocence people just to riled up Goku into fighting him. That's not a good person.
Akira should have just let Vegeta stay dead.
Originally posted by Q99
Give me SSJ4 over the 'SSJ1 with different color' forms of the new stuff. I find it a visually interesting design!
Yeah, the uniqueness from "blonde/spiky/ki bolts" is what I like about it.
It's Vegeta's design specifically that looks a bit questionable. Purple gloves, purple uggs, brown hair highlights..
And then there's the awesome shiny, skin tight teal leather pants. 🙂
Originally posted by cdtmGood catch. 👆
Edited: Googling around now, and came up with this board convo. Haven't read it all yet, but:So it's misleading to refer to that sketch as Toriyama's "SSj4 design" as if it were analogous to the design sketches he drew for some of the movie villains, since he had no role in designing this character. It's just a sketch of SSj4 Goku that Toriyama drew years after GT ended
Originally posted by Q99Agreed. It's more reminiscent of a Saiyan's Oozaru heritage as well.
Give me SSJ4 over the 'SSJ1 with different color' forms of the new stuff. I find it a visually interesting design!
I'm not much on the pink fur, though --I think it brown or gold fur would have looked better-- but the design itself is excellent.
Originally posted by Bentley
Piccolo is pure win 👆
Yes, yes he was.
****! If only Akira had continued to give him relevance. He could have given him a super Namekian transcended form.
I mean, by just fusing with Nail, he was able to beat the living day lights out of Frieza's 2nd form.
In that fight, before power levels were thrown out the window, he's power level was over 1 million.
Frieza had to transform to even hang with him.
Then on Earth after he fused with Kami, he was able to almost kill Cell, if Cell hadn't run away, he would have died.
Am hoping Akira makes the z fighters relevant in this new series. Have them get train by the Gods of destructions.
And kill Vegeta. That ****er.
DBM's concept for Gast Carcolh was very interesting. He is basically a fusion of every living Namekian, using Nail and Guru as a base. Initially, his power was sufficient to stomp Freeza. Over time, he became powerful enough to own the likes of Zen Buu(who was > Vegetto.)
It'd be cool to see Piccolo become the same type of Namekian 'Ubermensch'. Perhaps have some sort of plague that is killing-off the remaining Namekians, and the only way for them to be saved is by merging with Piccolo. That would at least make him relevant again. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007I want to see the Namek who created those dragon balls. Guy must be hella strong
Yes. The basic plot of GT was Goku and friends going off into space to find the Ultimate Dragon Balls. Toriyama has already confirmed that after Super readapts BoG and RoF, the storyline will shift to Goku and friends going into a new universe to find the "Super" Dragon Balls. That alone is a pretty glaring similarity.
At this point, I'm convinced they're better off retconning/rewriting/continuing on from that point. Maybe even retcon the fact that it's a ten-year gap into something smaller (I know Saiyans don't age past their prime, but still).
Originally posted by SquallX
Yes, yes he was.****! If only Akira had continued to give him relevance. He could have given him a super Namekian transcended form.
I mean, by just fusing with Nail, he was able to beat the living day lights out of Frieza's 2nd form.
In that fight, before power levels were thrown out the window, he's power level was over 1 million.
Frieza had to transform to even hang with him.
Then on Earth after he fused with Kami, he was able to almost kill Cell, if Cell hadn't run away, he would have died.
Am hoping Akira makes the z fighters relevant in this new series. Have them get train by the Gods of destructions.
And kill Vegeta. That ****er.
Preach. Toriyama's said on and off that Piccolo's his favorite character, and I think that shows throughout all the sagas besides the Buu saga (where even then, he was still plenty relevant, if more as a mentor than a fighter). Hell, even what screen time he had in GT managed to tip the scales in the heroes' favor when needed (even though I still find the Black Star Dragon Balls to be a plot hole).
Originally posted by Astner
I'm convinced that Toriyama drew that as a "**** you! Come up with your own shit," to the concept artists, but the point went over their heads.
It beats the shit outta, Red Hair! Blue Hair! Green Hair! Oh my!
Originally posted by Galan007Agreed. It's more reminiscent of a Saiyan's Oozaru heritage as well.
Thank you! This is exactly why I love the SS4 transformation. It comes full circle for the Saiyan heritage.
Originally posted by SquallX
Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.The main was basically recreated to be pure evil like his father. At the beginning he was that villain, he choose to change into a better person not only for himself but for Gohan.
Piccolo basically became a good person through good development.
And unlike Vegeta, he didn't whine and moan for more power because someone else was stronger than him, he just trained more. And he sure as hell didn't put the Earth and the Universe in danger just because he was jealous.
Hell, the shit Vegeta did in the Buu saga proved to me, no matter what, Vegeta is a shitty character.
Piccolo had no family on Earth, yet he still protected it, where as Vegeta had a wife and son, yet he willingly give himself to Babidi's control just for power.
He killed a bunch of innocence people just to riled up Goku into fighting him. That's not a good person.
Akira should have just let Vegeta stay dead.
Originally posted by JayDaDon
It beats the shit outta, Red Hair! Blue Hair! Green Hair! Oh my!Thank you! This is exactly why I love the SS4 transformation. It comes full circle for the Saiyan heritage.
I wanna see ape aspects of (at least) the pure blood saiyans again over neutered monkeys with random hair recolors.
Originally posted by SquallX
Always believed that role fell to Piccolo.The main was basically recreated to be pure evil like his father. At the beginning he was that villain, he choose to change into a better person not only for himself but for Gohan.
Piccolo basically became a good person through good development.
And unlike Vegeta, he didn't whine and moan for more power because someone else was stronger than him, he just trained more. And he sure as hell didn't put the Earth and the Universe in danger just because he was jealous.
Hell, the shit Vegeta did in the Buu saga proved to me, no matter what, Vegeta is a shitty character.
Piccolo had no family on Earth, yet he still protected it, where as Vegeta had a wife and son, yet he willingly give himself to Babidi's control just for power.
He killed a bunch of innocence people just to riled up Goku into fighting him. That's not a good person.
Akira should have just let Vegeta stay dead.
The thing about Vegeta is...he's not a human being or a namekian. He's a saiyan and what they do for power and the thrill of a good fight makes literally no sense where the ones they care about come in. Goku is a victim to that saiyan nature time and time and time again. He endangered everyone on Earth by giving Cell a phucking sensu bean to fight gohan. He wanted to fight Vegeta again in the saiyan saga (I quote) on Earth. He let Frieza power up to his maximum before beating him. And the thing is, HE wasn't raised in saiyan culture like Vegeta. Vegeta had his whole life of thinking a certain way to change, not to mention unresolved rage from a life of being under Frieza's thumb. Old habits die hard and a lifetime of habits die harder.
Originally posted by JayDaDon
The thing about Vegeta is...he's not a human being or a namekian. He's a saiyan and what they do for power and the thrill of a good fight makes literally no sense where the ones they care about come in. Goku is a victim to that saiyan nature time and time and time again. He endangered everyone on Earth by giving Cell a phucking sensu bean to fight gohan. He wanted to fight Vegeta again in the saiyan saga (I quote) on Earth. He let Frieza power up to his maximum before beating him. And the thing is, HE wasn't raised in saiyan culture like Vegeta. Vegeta had his whole life of thinking a certain way to change, not to mention unresolved rage from a life of being under Frieza's thumb. Old habits die hard and a lifetime of habits die harder.
That's all true in a sense, and that's one of the reason I don't consider Goku a hero in the sense of being a Hero.
He'll defend others because half the time the villains are looking for him and he loves a good fight.
The reason you mentioned aboved is the reason in my opinion makes Piccolo such a well develop character.
After he became good, he never once jeopardize the world for his selfish pride. Piccolo was always the voice of reason that went even farther than Goku in protecting the Earth.
Case in point, Goku wasn't going to tell the z Fighters about the Androids showing up if not for Piccolo super hearing.
If he had not told them, the Z fighters would have died in less than second against the Androids.
At the end of the day, Piccolo's race has there own planet, he could always say screw the Earth and go to new Namek, but he cares enough to always be the voice of reason when the main character is just a hot headed Buffon that would willing abandoned his wife and kids just for. Fight.