Supreme Kai Strength?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're getting angry for no reason. Cutting/piercing attacks are entirely different than general blast attacks. Most DBZ fans are well aware of this. That's why the Destructo Disk(a cutting attack), for example, is so effective, and has consistently allowed Krillin to step WAY beyond his weight class. IOW, characters are typically much less resistant to cutting attacks then they are to blast attacks/explosions and whatnot.

Anywho, there is ZERO proof that "the mere air of Vegeta's punches" would kill Freeza, like you said. These red herrings you're throwing around do not change this.

Also, lol @ "blind love for Freeza". ALL I'm doing is bringing up his feats--you're just ignoring them in favor of these 'air currents' that ASSJ Vegeta can theoretically generate. none

Goku explicitly noted that Trunks was NOT going all-out against him with 'Freeza-slaying' strikes.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
Agreed. Obviously Vegeta can kill Frieza, but there's no way he's doing it with air or thoughts like these guys are saying. 😂

Of course Vegeta can kill Freeza effortlessly. I'm merely saying that he can't do it with air currents(like Sj said), or telepathy(like Gogeta said.) They're either grossly underestimating Freeza, or grossly overestimating Vegeta.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're getting angry for no reason. Cutting/piercing attacks are entirely different than general blast attacks. Most DBZ fans are well aware of this. That's why the Destructo Disk(a cutting attack), for example, is so effective, and has consistently allowed Krillin to step WAY beyond his weight class. IOW, characters are typically much less resistant to cutting attacks then they are to blast attacks/explosions and whatnot.

Anywho, there is ZERO proof that "the mere air of Vegeta's punches" would kill Freeza, like you said. These red herrings you're throwing around do not change this.

Also, lol @ "blind love for Freeza". ALL I'm doing is bringing up his feats--you're just ignoring them in favor of these 'air currents' that ASSJ Vegeta can theoretically generate. none

I'm not angry.
It's true what you say, however (bar the OP Destructo Disk) what governs the level of power of piercing attacks is still the battle power/Ki level of the user, otherwise King Cold would have killed Trunks with his own sword or #18, who resisted to every kind of physical hit from Ssj Vegeta, would have still suffered the loss of her arm by means of Trunks' sword.

I'm honestly not the one who is ignoring feats/proof here, and I said "blind love" as a way to describe the fact that you yourself stated to consider Freeza higher than most.
Proof, like it or not, is the Goku vs Chi-Chi fight: one opponent is just much stronger than the other (despite the latter still being Roshi's level or, arguably, even stronger than that) and he can thus send the other flying casually with the air shockwaves generated by his punches (and yes, Goku could have killed her with that, as he himself was worried to have used too much strength).
Chi-Chi likely had, at that moment, a battle power (and, thus, a durability) which would let her tank the majority of attacks which happened in DB up to that point, yet Goku was capable to perform such a feat because he was much stronger than her: the gap in power is what really matters here, not who the two contenders are, and the gap in power between Super Vegeta and Freeza is even hilariously bigger than that, so the same could happen to the latter, irrespective of his durability (which is, indeed, actually nothing to Assj Vegeta's power output).

Originally posted by carver9
Answer this. The same blast that killed Gohan during the Boo saga, do you think Frieza would've survived said attack?

- The explosion of Earth? Sure thing, as he managed to survive the explosion of a likely much bigger planet.
- Kid Boo's blast? Hell no.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp

- The explosion of Earth? Sure thing, as he managed to survive the explosion of a likely much bigger planet.
- Kid Boo's blast? Hell no.

The Z fighters haven't been put in the same situation as Frieza when it comes to withstanding a planet explosion. Frieza survived the detonation of a planets explosion, the Z fighters gets killed by the Ki of whoever is destroying said planet.

There's a difference. A huge difference. I feel 100% sure that Frieza would die from Cell Kamikaze that killed Goku and I feel safe at saying that Frieza would die from Buu Earth shattering explosion. An argument can be made that the Z fighters could survive Namek destruction though.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
I'm not angry. 🙂
It's true what you say, however (bar the OP Destructo Disk) what still governs the level of power of piercing attacks is still the battle power/Ki level of the user, otherwise King Cold would have killed Trunks with his own sword or #18, who resisted to ever kind of physical hit and blast from Ssj Vegeta, would have still suffered the loss of her arms by means of Trunks's sword.

But again: characters are typically much less resistant to cutting attacks then they are to blast attacks/explosions and whatnot.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
I'm honestly not the one who is ignoring feats/proof here, and I said "blind love" as a way to describe the fact that you yourself stated to consider Freeza higher than most.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Proof, like it or not, is the Goku vs Chi-Chi fight: one opponent is just much stronger than the other (despite the latter still being Roshi's level or, arguably, even stronger than that) and he can thus sent the other flying casually with the air shockwaves generated by his punches (and yes, Goku could have killed her with that, as he himself was worried to have used too much strength).
Chi-Chi had, at that moment, a battle power (and, thus, a durability) which would let her tank almost everything which happened in DB up to that point, yet Goku was capable to perform such a feat because he was much stronger than her: the gap in power is what really matters here, not who the two contenders are, and the gap in power between Super Vegeta and Freeza is even hilariously bigger than that, so the same could happen to the latter, irrespective of his durability (which is, indeed, actually nothing to Assj Vegeta's power output).

Additionally, a kiai has NEVER been used to do more than send the opponent flying. Dunno what evidence you have to support the notion that it can be scaled-up enough to kill someone in Freeza's tier..?

Originally posted by carver9
The Z fighters haven't been put in the same situation as Frieza when it comes to withstanding a planet explosion.

The rest of the Z Fighters would have also been killed, had Whis not shielded them.

Originally posted by Galan007
They were put in that situation during RoF. Freeza blew up the Earth. BSSJG Vegeta died in the explosion. Freeza survived.

The rest of the Z Fighters would have also been killed, had Whis not shielded them.

Frieza did blow up the planet and since we know they can't breath in space...

Anyways, Frieza explains to us why Goku wouldn't survive the detonation of planet Namek and it had nothing to do with the planet explosion.

BoG and DBS both depict Goku surviving in space just fine. 🙂

RoF doesn't, though. 🙁

Originally posted by Galan007
BoG and DBS both depict Goku surviving in space just fine. 🙂

RoF doesn't, though. 🙁

Lol...ROF sucks. I'm glad they are remaking everything. We finally get to see the depths of the Z fighters abilities.

Originally posted by carver9
The Z fighters haven't been put in the same situation as Frieza when it comes to withstanding a planet explosion. Frieza survived the detonation of a planets explosion, the Z fighters gets killed by the Ki of whoever is destroying said planet.

There's a difference. A huge difference. I feel 100% sure that Frieza would die from Cell Kamikaze that killed Goku and I feel safe at saying that Frieza would die from Buu Earth shattering explosion. An argument can be made that the Z fighters could survive Namek destruction though.

That's true, in case of Kid Boo's attack, it was the fact that it was Kid Boo's blast that scared Goku and Vegeta: had it been the Galick Gun of saiyan saga Vegeta, Boo saga Goku would have swapped it away like a fly, even if that blast was planetary itself.

It's obvious that Freeza would casually be atomized in those situations; actually it would take way less than this, and a casual blast from #18, for example, would be plenty in order to destroy him.
Regarding the Z fighters, maybe an argument could be made for the strongest of them to survive planetary explosions if they can protect themselves with their Ki, but there are literally zero chances for them to be capable to withstand something like the explosion of Namek while Ki-depleted and thus with their physical durability alone.

Originally posted by Galan007
Holding the sword doesn't mean you can automatically chop-up any opponent you come across--it isn't Excalibur, lol. Obviously a certain amount of physical strength is still required to cleave through your opponent's hide. That's why Cold couldn't harm Trunks--he simply wasn't strong enough. In the end, though, we are still talking about a physical sword-strike/cutting attack. This is VASTLY different than a general ki attack... Let alone an air current attack/kiai.

But again: characters are typically much less resistant to cutting attacks then they are to blast attacks/explosions and whatnot.

Here we are now saying the same thing.

Originally posted by Galan007
This doesn't mean I'm misrepresenting the character. I simply think it's ridiculous to believe he can be killed by an air current... But somehow that gets me labeled as a 'fanboy' or whatever. Lol.

Nope, had I wanted to call you a fanboy I'd have done that; simplier, I consider you to be overestimanting Freeza, as, after all, you yourself admitted in your first post.
Also, now you are believing that it's ridicolous for Freeza to be killed by the air generated by the sheer power of Super Vegeta's punches, but when I originally quote you, you were saying that Super Vegeta wouldn't likely be able to kill Freeza in one blow, thing which I find to be hilarious and which was the fact that "concerned" me at first.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, that showing doesn't apply here. Why? Because what Goku might have been able to do to Chi-Chi is not indicative of what Vegeta might be able to do to Freeza. For starters: Chi-Chi is human, Freeza is a mutant.

Additionally, a kiai has NEVER been used to do more than send the opponent flying. Dunno what evidence you have to support the notion that it can be scaled-up enough to kill someone in Freeza's tier..?

I don't think this is a valid argument: in DB, we saw many times that you can easily replicate someone else's combat feat if you are strong enough, or (thing which fits in this case) if your opponent is enough weaker than you.
Even with the human-mutant/alien divergence I honestly don't see a point: Zarbon is a planetary mutant/alien, Cell saga Krilin is a human, yet the latter would casually get rid of the former without breaking a sweat.

Also, I don't even consider 23rd Budokai Goku's feats to be a kiai; it is simply Goku's generating an overwhelming current of air thanks to the strength put in his punch, even Roshi acknowledges so:

Chapter: 171, P10.4
Context: after Goku blows Chi-Chi out of the ring, seemingly without doing anything
Kame-sennin: “He didn’t just do nothing...Goku probably pumped his fist with stupendous force…The shockwave-like thing created then blew the girl away before she had time to avoid it…”

Kiais we have seen throughout the series (like Goku's one against the Ginyus or Gohan's one against that robbers' car, or, again, the one used by Supreme Kai against Fat Boo) are completely different, since, as you very well know, they basically are burst of invisible Ki used to push away the specific opponent and, contrariwise to this specific case, they clearly don't rely on physical strength.

Being said that, I'd like also to say that Freeza's tier is fodder tier by the time the cyborg showed up, so, in conclusion, knowing how simplistically DB has always worked, I personally find it obvious that Super Vegeta would replicate over Freeza what Goku did to Chi-Chi, considering that, even more, the gap in power between the formers is way bigger than the latters.

However, I'd like to bring back the discussion to what originally my disagreement with your opinion was: i.e., even if you probably won't agree with me regarding the aforementioned ability of Super Vegeta to obliterate Freeza with the shockwaves of his punches, what yet I don't understand is this:

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I think he was stronger than ASSJ Vegeta, to be able to fell Freeza with a single blow... But maybe I think higher of Freeza than most. /shrug

^ How would this be even possible, honestly?
The explanation of Freeza being durable and a mutant can't simply hold here: as an example, the Cell Jrs are mutant as well, and they also posses Freeza's DNA, yet Ssj2 Gohan was so much more powerful that he has been capable to obliterate each one of them literally with one single blow.
What's more, Super Vegeta is far stronger than 100% Freeza than Ssj2 Gohan is compared to the Cell Jrs...

Long post that doesn't really get around to any noteworthy points.

Anyway, if you think that ASSJ Vegeta can kill Freeza with one physical strike, that's fine. Can he kill Freeza with a kiai, though? Absolutely not. No kiai that has ever been generated would be remotely capable of killing Freeza... The Goku/Chi-Chi thing is hilariously irrelevant.

If you say so.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, if you think that ASSJ Vegeta can kill Freeza with one physical strike, that's fine.

^However, at least we've made the most important step forward.

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
^However, at least we've made the most important step forward.

AGAIN: the notion that Vegeta could kill Freeza with "air currents"(like you originally said) is what I find laughable, and utterly disagree with.

Originally posted by Galan007
Vegeta killing Freeza with a physical strike is NOT what I have been contesting--please stop trying to move the goal-posts.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I think he was stronger than ASSJ Vegeta, to be able to fell Freeza with a single blow... But maybe I think higher of Freeza than most. /shrug

I'm not moving the goal-post, ^ this post of yours said otherwise, it was unespected from you and that's what left me confused since I know you have high knowledge regarding DB.
Then, I furthermore stated that Vegeta could kill Freeza with the air generated by the sheer strength of his punches (given the huge gap in power between the two), and the whole conversation rotated around said statement of mine.

However it's cool, it seems we now agree on the capability of Vegeta to kill Freeza with a single blow, thing of which is ultimately fine by me. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
AGAIN: the notion that Vegeta could kill Freeza with "air currents"(like you originally said) is what I find laughable, and utterly disagree with.

I'm fine with you disagreeing here. 🙂

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
I furthermore stated that Vegeta could kill Freeza with the air generated by the sheer strength of his punches (given the huge gap in power between the two)

Had you said: "I think Vegeta could kill Freeza with a physical strike", I would have said: "okay, that's your opinion", and left it at that... But "air currents"? Lol, sorry but no.

Originally posted by Galan007
...Which is the ONLY opinion of yours that I ever contested, because it is flat-out wrong.

Had you said: "I think Vegeta could kill Freeza with a physical strike", I would have said: "okay, that's your opinion", and left it at that... But "air currents"? Lol, sorry but no.

To me, the Goku-ChiChi example (considering how DB has always worked) is enough to say that the same could happen even between Super Vegeta and Freeza, and I honestly won't change my idea on this, however I apologise for before since I can't "force" others to firmly believe in something probably quite far-fetched like that: if you consider it to be hilarious so be it, I understand and I'll accept it. 😉

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
To me, the Goku-ChiChi example (considering how DB has always worked) is enough to say that the same could happen even between Super Vegeta and Freeza, and I honestly won't change my idea on this, however I apologise for before since I can't "force" others to firmly believe in something probably quite far-fetched like that: if you consider it to be hilarious so be it, I understand and I'll accept it. 😉

Could the same happen to Goku (Vegeta air punches) if Vegeta hit him with the air of his punches (let's use Goku during the era Vegeta was at that level)?

Originally posted by carver9
Could the same happen to Goku (Vegeta air punches) if Vegeta hit him with the air of his punches (let's use Goku during the era Vegeta was at that level)?

Do you mean Super Vegeta against Androids saga Goku pre Rosat?

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Do you mean Super Vegeta against Androids saga Goku pre Rosat?

Let's use both Goku and Vegeta at their Super levels.