Originally posted by NephthysSure, how about here:
Wanna show me where he was injured?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg&t=2m11s
Where Nox brings him to his knees. It's not as if it isn't made obvious.
In RotS Dooku is getting dominated by Anakin and so Force exhausted his vision was dimming, then he gets a moment and basically bounces back up to near full.Dooku's ability to put up a fight, after off-balancing Anakin with taunts, is not proof he recovered from Force exhaustion.
And Nox pretty much did pwn him on Corellia, she walks in, beats the shit out of his elite guard then beats Darth Whatever then beats Thanaton in a straight row.I'm don't know what you're definition of "pwn" is but fact is Nox did not walk in, bat aside his lightning, then ragdoll him.
And there's nothing indicating a prolonged duel or that at any point Thanaton pressed Nox, those fights happen in gameplayIt's still the only depiction of the fight we have, you're intepretation is based on complete conjecture.
Unless you have actual proof that the fight was brief and easy?
For all we know the fight we have as players was equivalent to Nox zapping him in the nuts for 4 seconds. Comparably, Baras vs the Wrath was shown to be you wearing him down through multiple cutscenes and fights.Yeah, for all we know they didn't even fight and played poker instead, because baseless assumptions are fun right?
You're the one speculating. There's no indication of Nox wearing him down. If anything Nox wasn't at full strength since she has to fight through Thanaton's welcoming committee before him. She still beats him effortlessly.The indication is plain as day, Nox didn't walk in and finish him immediately, he fought him first, the only explanation as to why that happened is that Nox can't pwn Thanaton without wearing him down first. If that were the case there wouldn't have been a fight, and it would have jumped straight to the cutscene, which is what the game always does when pwning fodder.
@Vixas, the only thing I'm contending is that Thanaton was at full or near full strength when Nox finished him, and that therefore Nox can shrug off attacks of Thanaton's caliber and ragdoll someone with his level of defenses, he cannot. However it's obvious Thanaton was outclassed.
FYI the heal to full comment was in reference to Neph believing that in this few second period, Thanaton actually regained all his power.
As for him being stronger than Dooku however, yeah I don't think so. I don't believe Dooku mastered the Force storm (it wasn't a maelstrom) either, but neither did Marek or Vader, it's not necessarily an indication of superiority if he can produce the greater output with standard lightning.
And though more varied in mastery, in terms of sheer power there is nothing Nox has done that Dooku couldn't realistically replicate, so given that it would seem unreasonable to say that Thanaton is superior to him.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, how about here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg&t=2m11s
Where Nox brings him to his knees. It's not as if it isn't made obvious.
Being on your knee's isn't being injured, it's an indication of being defeated. Scourge was on his knee's yet stands up and strolls away without issue a few seconds later.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dooku's ability to put up a fight, after off-balancing Anakin with taunts, is not proof he recovered from Force exhaustion.
God, you could at least try to check the facts:
"He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.
He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.
There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."
He goes from barely able to cushion a fall to being strong enough to gain the upper hand on Anakin.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm don't know what you're definition of "pwn" is but fact is Nox did not walk in, bat aside his lightning, then ragdoll him.
Prove it. Prove that Thanaton wasn't as outclassed as we see later. You can't because we never see the fight, you are completely making this shit up. Thanaton got his ass kicked and ran away like a pansy despite Nox having to go through 2 duels before clashing with him.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's still the only depiction of the fight we have, you're intepretation is based on complete conjecture.Unless you have actual proof that the fight was brief and easy?
facepalm No, it isn't a depiction at all. Gameplay isn't a reflection of canon. I'm not interpreting it any way at all, because my point was that we have no clue how the fight went down and balls-zapping is just as valid a theory as epic lengthy showdown. But if you insist...
The proof is how Nox completely pwns him later without any change in her abilities. That establishes their respective levels well enough to conclude how the Corellia fight went down. Not that that matters, because I'm not the one trying to establish anything here. You're trying to prove it took Nox effort, which is, ironically, "complete conjecture."
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, for all we know they didn't even fight and played poker instead, because baseless assumptions are fun right?
They must be, I doubt you'd keep making them cuz you think it makes you look smart.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The indication is plain as day, Nox didn't walk in and finish him immediately, he fought him first, the only explanation as to why that happened is that Nox can't pwn Thanaton without wearing him down first. If that were the case there wouldn't have been a fight, and it would have jumped straight to the cutscene, which is what the game always does when pwning fodder
We have no information of that "fight". So we can't conclude how extensive it was or how much Nox weakened Thanaton by. Clearly not enough to actually beat him since he just stands up and resumes the fight. Just like the Wrath "beats" Nomen Karr and has him on his knee's before the guy gets his second wind and fights you again. It's just as plausible that Nox quickly disarmed him in a saber duel and smacked his ass down with TK or that she immediately overpowered his lightsaber defenses and zapped him in the dick or that, yeah, they had a long fight. Anything is plausible because we don't know what happened in the gameplay section other than that at some point Nox put him on his knees and then the cutscene played out. We DO know that Thanaton unleashes his most potent lightning display ever afterwards though, so he clearly wasn't that badly weakened.
What the shit are you talking about? No, the game obviously needs to give the player a final boss and it's never done that. The Warrior fights some acolytes on Korriban and you still need to actually fight them in gameplay despite them mentioning afterwards that you curbstomped them. The HoT blitzes Sith in a cutscene and you still have to fight more afterwards despite the game clearly showing you how above them she is.
ALSO you're ignoring that Nox was blatantly playing with him and extending the fight by letting Thanaton do whatever because she was confident she could walk through whatever he could throw out. So how you do know that if they had a fight, that it wasn't solely because she let him? Just like how she let him continue in the cutscene and could easily beat his ass at any point.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how the guy who's consistently bested some of the most powerful people in the mythos with the Force is also weaker than the guy who was made to look like a total *****, at close to full strength according to you, by someone who was casually TK'd, along with several other people, by Revan. TOR wank is unreal in here right now.
Precisely why I can't pick a side here. 👆
Originally posted by NephthysBy being weakened/exhausted. 😐
Being on your knee's isn't being injured, it's an indication of being defeated.
How else was Nox supposed to bring him to his knees?
Scourge was on his knee's yet stands up and strolls away without issue a few seconds later.On what basis are you assuming Scourge healed to full as well? If he was strong enough to continue fighting, he would have continued fighting.
God, you could at least try to check the facts:A feat for Dooku I suppose, shame Thanaton isn't on his level."[b]He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power
before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.
There was something troublingly appropriate about it. Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago ... it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he'd never actually had . . .
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."
He goes from barely able to cushion a fall to being strong enough to gain the upper hand on Anakin.[/b]
Though he only appears to gather strength for his FLS attack.
Prove it. Prove that Thanaton wasn't as outclassed as we see later. You can't because we never see the fight, you are completely making this shit up. Thanaton got his ass kicked and ran away like a pansy despite Nox having to go through 2 duels before clashing with him.We do see the fight, you're simply assuming that because it's not depicted as a cutscene, but gameplay, it's therefore non-canon, despite FE Malgus Force choking the Protags and Revan hurling meteorites being fair game. Double standards much?
And where this stated to be the case anyway?
facepalm No, it isn't a depiction at all. Gameplay isn't a reflection of canon. I'm not interpreting it any way at all, because my point was that we have no clue how the fight went down and balls-zapping is just as valid a theory as epic lengthy showdown.Not interpreting?
And Nox pretty much did pwn him on Corellia, she walks in, beats the shit out of his elite guard then beats Darth Whatever then beats Thanaton in a straight row.
The proof is how Nox completely pwns him later without any change in her abilities. That establishes their respective levels well enough to conclude how the Corellia fight went down.I'd say you're contradicting yourself, but apparently it isn't relevant.
We have no information of that "fight". So we can't conclude how extensive it was or how much Nox weakened Thanaton by.You can argue the specifics of the fight are ambiguous, but it's evident that a protracted engagement occurred, not a stomp, and that's all the evidence we need to prove Nox had to wear him down before destroying him.
Really, you're forgetting he was literally ragdolled, Thanaton couldn't even raise his lightsaber against him, that is not a fight by any stretch of the imagination.
But if we assume the entire fight is non-canon as you suggest? That would only leave you unable to conclude that Nox didn't engage him in a protracted engagement, a necessary assumption to make in order to disprove my argument, that it was, hence Nox had to weaken Thanaton first in order stomp him.
You'd be left with a feat that is decidedly ambiguous and inconclusive.
Clearly not enough to actually beat him since he just stands up and resumes the fight.And fails pathetically. But of course, you're assuming he failed just as pathetically the first time.
Just like the Wrath "beats" Nomen Karr and has him on his knee's before the guy gets his second wind and fights you again. It's just as plausible that Nox quickly disarmed him in a saber duel and smacked his ass down with TK or that she immediately overpowered his lightsaber defenses and zapped him in the dick or that, yeah, they had a long fight. Anything is plausible because [b]we don't know what happened in the gameplay section other than that at some point Nox put him on his knees and then the cutscene played out.[/b]So you accept we cannot know whether Thanaton was weakened or not, and therefore whether Nox can stomp him at full strength or not? If so that's a start.
We DO know that Thanaton unleashes his most potent lightning display ever afterwards though, so he clearly wasn't that badly weakened.Which likely expended the last of his power, making him susceptible to being ragdolled.
What the shit are you talking about? No, the game obviously needs to give the player a final boss and it's never done that. The Warrior fights some acolytes on Korriban and you still need to actually fight them in gameplay despite them mentioning afterwards that you curbstomped them. The HoT blitzes Sith in a cutscene and you still have to fight more afterwards despite the game clearly showing you how above them she is.There is a difference between killing fodder and a final boss. Yes game mechanics need to be fulfilled but not at the expense of the lore, hence why final bosses are consistently powerful individuals who could logically challenge the player.
A final boss that can't even raise his lightsaber to his opponent is, illogical.
ALSO you're ignoring that Nox was blatantly playing with him and extending the fight by letting Thanaton do whatever because she was confident she could walk through whatever he could throw out. So how you do know that if they had a fight, that it wasn't solely because she let him? Just like how she let him continue in the cutscene and could easily beat his ass at any point.Because I'm not in the business of baseless speculation? You're again failing to understand that you don't accept the fight to be canon, you can't assume the circumstances necessary to support you're stance.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, how about here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-92PJMyYOYg&t=2m11s
Where Nox brings him to his knees. It's not as if it isn't made obvious.
Dooku's ability to put up a fight, after off-balancing Anakin with taunts, is not proof he recovered from Force exhaustion.I'm don't know what you're definition of "pwn" is but fact is Nox did not walk in, bat aside his lightning, then ragdoll him.It's still the only depiction of the fight we have, you're intepretation is based on complete conjecture.Unless you have actual proof that the fight was brief and easy?Yeah, for all we know they didn't even fight and played poker instead, because baseless assumptions are fun right?The indication is plain as day, Nox didn't walk in and finish him immediately, he fought him first, the only explanation as to why that happened is that Nox can't pwn Thanaton without wearing him down first. If that were the case there wouldn't have been a fight, and it would have jumped straight to the cutscene, which is what the game always does when pwning fodder.
@Vixas, the only thing I'm contending is that Thanaton was at full or near full strength when Nox finished him, and that therefore Nox can shrug off attacks of Thanaton's caliber and ragdoll someone with his level of defenses, he cannot. However it's obvious Thanaton was outclassed.
FYI the heal to full comment was in reference to Neph believing that in this few second period, Thanaton actually regained all his power.
As for him being stronger than Dooku however, yeah I don't think so. I don't believe Dooku mastered the Force storm (it wasn't a maelstrom) either, but neither did Marek or Vader, it's not necessarily an indication of superiority if he can produce the greater output with standard lightning.
And though more varied in mastery, in terms of sheer power there is nothing Nox has done that Dooku couldn't realistically replicate, so given that it would seem unreasonable to say that Thanaton is superior to him.
Ah well Beni then I feel the need to touch on something. Sure, Thanaton's condition during the final fight is open to interpretation. Nox still bests him on Corellia when, as far as we know and saying otherwise would be pure conjecture, he is at full strength. (On a side note the only conjecture for this that would make sense is that he IS at full strength, given he sets it up himself as the end-stage of the Kaggath.)
(The maelstrom thing was artistic license by the by. Why can I never use colorful words? V_V)
In any case, can you prove Dooku's lightning is any more lethal than Nox's? They are both capable of being lethal. I also did not state I believe Nox will ragdoll Dooku, just that his superiority in the Force, the ghost amp, and the plethora of abilities Dooku likely only knows of through study, but does know Nox knows. I would also like to point out the advantage afforded Nox by their time-period. (IE: Nox relatively used to other force-users launching lightning at them... a lot. xD) Whereas Dooku would be more focused in counter-acting the Jedi who did not know many of the abilities Nox does. That being said Dooku is, obviously, able to deflect lightning of his own's caliber. No Nyriss-ing himself thank goodness.
Originally posted by VixasFully aware, the only thing I'm contending is that he remained at full strength at the very end of the fight where we see Nox utterly dominate him.
Ah well Beni then I feel the need to touch on something. Sure, Thanaton's condition during the final fight is open to interpretation. Nox still bests him on Corellia when, as far as we know and saying otherwise would be pure conjecture, he is at full strength. (On a side note the only conjecture for this that would make sense is that he IS at full strength, given he sets it up himself as the end-stage of the Kaggath.)(The maelstrom thing was artistic license by the by. Why can I never use colorful words? V_V)
In any case, can you prove Dooku's lightning is any more lethal than Nox's? They are both capable of being lethal. I also did not state I believe Nox will ragdoll Dooku, just that his superiority in the Force, the ghost amp, and the plethora of abilities Dooku likely only knows of through study, but does know Nox knows. I would also like to point out the advantage afforded Nox by their time-period. (IE: Nox relatively used to other force-users launching lightning at them... a lot. xD) Whereas Dooku would be more focused in counter-acting the Jedi who did not know many of the abilities Nox does. That being said Dooku is, obviously, able to deflect lightning of his own's caliber. No Nyriss-ing himself thank goodness.I don't think Nox's lightning is more lethal than Dooku's, they appear of similar strength to me. However I agree that Nox regardless has a more varied set of tools at his disposal so would likely win a pure contest of the Force.
But in an all-out I don't believe Nox can press him hard enough with the Force to keep Dooku from bringing his lightsaber to bear, which Nox cannot just stop with a gesture a la Thanaton.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
By being weakened/exhausted. 😐How else was Nox supposed to bring him to his knees?
By kicking his ass? Like what happened in the cutscene where she doesn't injure or weaken him at all, she just forces him to his knee's. It's very possible for him to be put on his knee's temporarily by something that knocks the wind out of his sails but that he can shrug off easily enough.
Thanaton gives no signs of exhaustion of weakening after he stands up. Theres no evidence that he was either.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis are you assuming Scourge healed to full as well? If he was strong enough to continue fighting, he would have continued fighting.
I'm not, I'm thinking that he wasn't injured at all. Like I said he stands and walks away without effort. In swtor if someones injured they walk away with a hunched shuffle, which Scourge didn't do. And obviously Scourge isn't going to fight to the last, he wants the HoT and himself to be alive and uninjured.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A feat for Dooku I suppose, shame Thanaton isn't on his level.Though he only appears to gather strength for his FLS attack.
It's not about levels, it's not like Dooku's the only guy who can call on the Force like that. Thanaton could do it as well. And just because he was only visibly charging for his storm doesn't mean anything. Dooku wasn't swirling with darkside energy either, drawing on the Force is primarily unseen.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
We do see the fight, you're simply assuming that because it's not depicted as a cutscene, but gameplay, it's therefore non-canon, despite FE Malgus Force choking the Protags and Revan hurling meteorites being fair game. Double standards much?And where this stated to be the case anyway?
Fool, those things are scripted events. They're things the developers put in as meant to happen in every fight. Gameplay fights are completely non-canon, with the arguably exception of their broad abilities.
Both the old EU canon rules and this forums rules (primarily the video game forum but over here as well) don't count gameplay mechanics as canon. In gameplay you have to slash Thanaton with your lightsaber a dozen times and zap him repeatedly. Obviously that didn't happen. We don't see the fight because the gameplay fight we see is divorced from the games reality.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not interpreting?I'd say you're contradicting yourself, but apparently it isn't relevant.
I said she pretty much pwned him because she still beat him after fighting through his body guards and his allied Darth with no break, indicating she's far above him. And I said she pwned him in the cutscene which is inarguable.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You can argue the specifics of the fight are ambiguous, but it's evident that a protracted engagement occurred, not a stomp, and that's all the evidence we need to prove Nox had to wear him down before destroying him.
Explain to me how it is evident. Issue your evidentce (ahahaha) for that claim.
If a protracted fight did ensue, it's just as likely it was due to Nox was messing around with him like we see in the cutscene. She did canonically "utterly destroy" him, which doesn't sound like a long fight where she wears him down. And it doesn't matter because Nox would be fighting equally as hard as him, it's not as if she peaces out of the fight and he just collapses in a weak heap. She'd have to draw on as much or even more, actually, power as he would to overpower and batter him until he's weak.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Really, you're forgetting he was literally ragdolled, Thanaton couldn't even raise his lightsaber against him, that is not a fight by any stretch of the imagination.
You said it, buddy. 👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But if we assume the entire fight is non-canon as you suggest? That would only leave you unable to conclude that Nox didn't engage him in a protracted engagement, a necessary assumption to make in order to disprove my argument, that it was, hence Nox had to weaken Thanaton first in order stomp him.You'd be left with a feat that is decidedly ambiguous and inconclusive.
Not at all. You're the one trying to prove that Nox weakened him. I don't need to prove that something didn't happen. That would be absurd. A fight did occur, but the details of it are unverifiable.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And fails pathetically. But of course, you're assuming he failed just as pathetically the first time.
I know right, Thanaton is clearly quite far below Nox.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So you accept we cannot know whether Thanaton was weakened or not, and therefore whether Nox can stomp him at full strength or not? If so that's a start.
The possibility exists but theres no evidence for it. It's as plausible as a flying spaghetti monster smacking Thanaton with a folding chair from behind.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which likely expended the last of his power, making him susceptible to being ragdolled.
~Baseless speculation~
Originally posted by Beniboybling
There is a difference between killing fodder and a final boss. Yes game mechanics need to be fulfilled but not at the expense of the lore, hence why final bosses are consistently powerful individuals who could logically challenge the player.A final boss that can't even raise his lightsaber to his opponent is, illogical.
The final boss of the Smuggler storyline is a fat bloke with a pistol. The final boss of the Trooper storyline is one dude against Havoc Squad. Neither are noted as good fighters and are outnumbered. Both represent essentially no threat to the player characters.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because I'm not in the business of baseless speculation? You're again failing to understand that you don't accept the fight to be canon, you can't assume the circumstances necessary to support you're stance.
Ahahahaha! Oh wait you're serious. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Your whole point is nothing but baseless speculation with you assuming things without any evidence to support your theory. I've given you evidence, I've given you examples, I'd rebutted all your points and I am outta here.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fully aware, the only thing I'm contending is that he remained at full strength at the very end of the fight where we see Nox utterly dominate him.I don't think Nox's lightning is more lethal than Dooku's, they appear of similar strength to me. However I agree that Nox regardless has a more varied set of tools at his disposal so would likely win a pure contest of the Force.But in an all-out I don't believe Nox can press him hard enough with the Force to keep Dooku from bringing his lightsaber to bear, which Nox cannot just stop with a gesture a la Thanaton. [/B]
Well, taking into account the neutral terrain (I think flat, open space akin to Final Destination in Smash Bros.) I do believe Nox would be better suited to utilizing his wide array of abilities to keep Dooku off-balance than Dooku would be for bum-rushing Nox. As I stated in my first post. He won't be flinging Dooku around like he did Thanaton after their fight, however by that same token he could make getting into lightsaber range VERY costly for Dooku if not outright impossible. Who has shown to have limits to his Force reserves when compensating for being put on his back-foot/surprised by sudden change-ups by his enemies. Something Nox's considerable arsenal would allow for. Ala when Anakin revealed his power-oriented Djem-So style and began pressing the good Count.