Originally posted by carthage
Um there is no mention of Quinlan being physically stronger than Dooku in their duel, He won by speed, constant motion, and unorthodox movements over Dooku.
Um, the fact that Quinlan was able to over power Dooku physically by keeping him down, whereas their first fight had Dooku easily flip him and proceed to over power Vos to the point where Vos could barely move, would prove Vos got stronger. Strength manifests itself in saber clashes, and slows the opponent, giving the other an even bigger advantage in speed, causing the opponent to struggle in keeping up. After all, Dooku was disarmed by the strength and ferocity of Vos's strike. (can't accomplish that on speed alone).
This was also after Dooku force handled Vos twice. Even then Dooku held the advantage in offensive force moves. That means Vader has an even greater advantage in that area.
Originally posted by carthage
Its relevant because Vader's style is more centered and confined due to his limited mobility, and even Dooku's more polished style was circumvented by Vos's constant motion/unpredictability.
Where talking about the new canon here. The only sources that suggest Vader was limited in mobility came from the EU. Therefore your argument would apply more to EU Vader.
While it's easy to see that Vader isn't as agile as he was as Anakin, he has a much stronger connection to the force, and doesn't need to be as agile in order to react to beings faster than he is. Ventress is much more agile than Dooku, but usually ends up getting stomped by Dooku in pure saber contests. He was outpacing her + 3 other jedi at once, while blind due to his stronger connection to the force. Logically, Vader, 'mainly focusing on saber ability' as you are suggesting, would have far better precognition/reaction speed/reflexes than Anakin.
Originally posted by carthage
He's described as having danced around Dooku:
Yes, I know. Vos had a good advantage in speed, as he would against Vader, except Vader is much stronger than Vos, thus Vos's saber strikes wouldn't be as taxing on Vader, and Vader would have better chances in not losing his saber. And even if he does somehow lose it, well that's when Vader would have no other option but to use the force and seize Vos with it, right? So either way, it'll come down to Vader's force, unless you think Vos would blitz Vader. If so, why would you place any version of Vader above Dooku?
The only advantage Vos has here is offensive/striking speed. Remember, though, Vader was able to direct his attention among three flying vulture droids, targeting them and ripping them open with one casual gesture, while he himself was in mid-flight.
Originally posted by carthage
He drew his lightsaber against Kanan and went straight for a duel, its not Vader's MO to instantly abuse his power. Canon Vader hasn't beaten an opponent as skilled as Ventress or has a feat comparable to besting Dooku, *his showings aren't comparable at all in terms of skill.*
Yeah, I saw the fight, but as I said, we're discussing what Vader is capable of doing, not what he does to opponents in which he's so far above that he has the choice to decide how he fights them. The point of these discussions are to establish a difference in power levels and ability of individuals by putting them in scenarios where they are fighting to win, which is why we usually try to match them against characters whom are close in term of combat. We can't come to such conclusions if we keep harping on what they prefer to do to people that they can kill instantly with their saber or ragdoll with the force. Vader has shown that he could just about do and outright do the former and latter to both Kanan and Ezra at the same time. And from what I've seen, Kanan and Ezra are pretty powerful, raising up and holding together an old jedi temple, keeping it from collapsing. Kanan seemed to always be just as powerful as the inquisitor, just lacked the focus, which he gained by their last fight, defeating the inquisitor.
*Hopefully he lives up to his hype then, right?*
Originally posted by carthage
He was being pressed in the duel and couldn't break his defense. He may have been more powerful, but he never attempted to use his force abilities due to being pressed in the fight. In the fight's depiction in the novel he never had an explicit edge in skill nor did it state anything about holding back.
Yeah, in the EU that was the case, which is why it was hard to argue in his favor against someone like Dooku, despite all of Vader's destructive displays of raw power. He was hard pressed to defeat an old Ben who had his connection to the force weakened by fear of using it and no longer having trust in it (The Last of the Jedi, 1st book, IIRC), whereas Dooku could flatten peak Kenobi in seconds via the force or his ability with a lightsaber.
The EU was inconsistent with Vader, and only the EU, to my knowledge, states that Kenobi became weaker in the force. See that is subject to change, as well as the circumstance of that fight with new canon.
Originally posted by carthage
Glad to see you agree about Vader dying due to not having better feats 👆
And is confirmed as being more powerful than Anakin and pretty much Dooku, unlike EU Vader. Vader's your guy, Cart. I'm just stating what's more probable with new canon Vader. The arguments you used against your guy would apply more to EU Vader, making EU Dooku his solid superior. As much as I like Dooku, with the way Disney is presenting Vader, I doubt Vos or Dooku are going to be his superior. That's just me.
The new slate is actually looking good for Vader, especially in comparison to his fellow new canon characters.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Where talking about the new canon here. The only sources that suggest Vader was limited in mobility came from the EU. Therefore your argument would apply more to EU Vader.
Well pretty sure Lucas always said his mobility and machine parts effected him in a Saber fight (ANH Audio commentary) as well as his potential. I'm sure Lucas's words still count for something.
Besides his Cybernetic parts would effect him one way or the other, so we can't just pretend they've had zero impact on his Saber abilities.
Also Post ROTS Vader is more Powerful in the Force than ROTS Anakin. But that doesn't mean he'd win a Saber fight against him, which may be more dependant on his Cybernetic enhancements than it is on his Force abilities.
Also a lot will depend on how good ANH Kenobi is in the new canon (due to the ANH fight). I know Filoni places him well above any Inquisitor, and he's said the most powerful Inquisitor is just below Ventress. But then it's kind of obvious Vader is well above any Inquisitor as well.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
[B]The EU was inconsistent with Vader, and only the EU, to my knowledge, states that Kenobi became weaker in the force. See that is subject to change, as well as the circumstance of that fight with new canon.
Eh not really, Vader did say that his powers were weak in ANH.
"Your powers are weak old man."- Vader
Of course how much weaker, or if it was just something else dunno and the fight could still play out different as you say.
DD Vos has flesh, Vader lost most of his flesh, burnt to a crisp. both tap into the dark side but Vos has more flesh to do so. living flesh is necessary to access the force, not machine.
Vos has more living flesh to access the dark side than Vader. who is more machine than man.
Vos wins, Sidious offers him to be his new apprentice, Vos then attacks Sidious, in the season finale of rebels season 3.
Originally posted by redpill
DD Vos has flesh, Vader lost most of his flesh, burnt to a crisp. both tap into the dark side but Vos has more flesh to do so. living flesh is necessary to access the force, not machine.Vos has more living flesh to access the dark side than Vader. who is more machine than man.
Vos wins, Sidious offers him to be his new apprentice, Vos then attacks Sidious, in the season finale of rebels season 3.
I like you. 😂
Originally posted by redpill
DD Vos has flesh, Vader lost most of his flesh, burnt to a crisp. both tap into the dark side but Vos has more flesh to do so. living flesh is necessary to access the force, not machine.Vos has more living flesh to access the dark side than Vader. who is more machine than man.
Vos wins, Sidious offers him to be his new apprentice, Vos then attacks Sidious, in the season finale of rebels season 3.