Eh, I'll respond later if I have time/feel like it.
Quick note on this, though:
"Well, Kyle was stated to be one of the best in the NJO. Things is though - the duelist during Kyle's time period > the duelist of the TOR. Someone like Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and his twin sister Jaina Solo Fel some to mind.
Impressive shit, but not a deciding factor in our debate."
When it came to the NJO's finest warriors, Luke, Jacen and Mara were the first names to be mentioned. That would suggest Kyle is beneath Mara, and I have my doubts that she's above the HoT.
And being "one of the best" out of hundreds/thousands of Jedi isn't more impressive than being the best of your time. You can't use the very best of the era to say that the average Jedi would suddenly be more skilled in that era. For instance, Luke's completely irrelevant when we know he would cream Kyle.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Eh, I'll respond later if I have time/feel like it.Quick note on this, though:
"Well, Kyle was stated to be one of the best in the NJO. Things is though - the duelist during Kyle's time period > the duelist of the TOR. Someone like Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and his twin sister Jaina Solo Fel some to mind.
Impressive shit, but not a deciding factor in our debate."When it came to the NJO's finest warriors, Luke, Jacen and Mara were the first names to be mentioned. That would suggest Kyle is beneath Mara, and I have my doubts that she's above the HoT.
And being "one of the best" out of hundreds/thousands of Jedi isn't more impressive than being the best of your time. You can't use the very best of the era to say that the average Jedi would suddenly be more skilled in that era. For instance, Luke's completely irrelevant when we know he would cream Kyle.
I have no idea what you're saying in the second half of your post. My point is, that Kyle wouldn't be the "best" of his era" because they are guys like Jacen, Jaina, and Luke who are all better than him, as the top tier's of his era are top tiers in the entire mythos. I never claimed Kyle being one of the best in his era's mean more than HoT being "the best" in his-----I'm saying the accolades are incomparable across era's because if HoT was placed in the NJO, he wouldn't be "the best" in the era, either. And likewise, Kyle may, or may not be the best in TOR era if he was placed there as well. That's kinda what we're discussing here before you went on a tangent behind statements and semantics.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I saw the quote, juat because Mara, Jacen and Luje was mentioned, that doesn't mean they were the best in the Order--- in fact, the quote itself didn't even say as much. Just being "renowned" warriors doesn't mean they're the absolute best of the Order ---- even then, A>B>C> logic is crap here because HoT isn't Mara and his feats and hype aren't superior to Katarn. This kind of logic and reaching is tantamount to someone who can't form a somewhat decent rebuttal.I have no idea what you're saying in the second half of your post. My point is, that Kyle wouldn't be the "best" of his era" because they are guys like Jacen, Jaina, and Luke who are all better than him, as the top tier's of his era are top tiers in the entire mythos. I never claimed Kyle being one of the best in his era's mean more than HoT being "the best" in his-----I'm saying the accolades are incomparable across era's because if HoT was placed in the NJO, he wouldn't be "the best" in the era, either. And likewise, Kyle may, or may not be the best in TOR era if he was placed there as well. That's kinda what we're discussing here before you went on a tangent behind statements and semantics.
1. No, the point was that they were the first names thought of when it came to renowned warriors. And sure, renowned isn't the same as skillful, but it has some translation. ABC logic is only being used loosely here - the bulk of my argument pertains to the HoT's feats, not powerscaling or accolades, and it's just something I haven't been able to elaborate on yet (I'll do so later, probably tomorrow).
Also, you can quit the taunting.
2. That's also flawed logic, but as you said, we don't want to be caught up on semantic parties. The point isn't that they're incomparable accolades, I was just listing reasons as to why the HoT would rival or supersede Kyle, whereas you seemed bent on proving Kyle was superior. The accolades aren't the backbone of my argument, but in combination with the HoT's feats, they lend credence to the notion that HoT rivals or possibly exceeds Kyle in skill. All I'm interested in so far is proving that the skill territory is debatable and hasn't been claimed by anyone yet. I'll get to proving that tomorrow.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't know why anyone would mention Kyle in the same breath as Luke, Jacen or Jaina. We saw exactly how comparable he was when Jacen almost cut his lets off a few moves into a fight.
Yep.
That's why I said he was one of the best of his era' and not the best because guys like Jacen and Luke would scar-drag him. But the same would happen to The Hero if he was in the NJO as opposed to being the best of TOR era. I think you missed the point in that part (see my explination to Razer) but I probably could have done a much better job articulating it in hindsight. Though, I did say it wasn't a deciding factor in the debate, so why people latch on like it's the crux of my argument, I have no clue.
😬
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No, the point was that they were the first names thought of when it came to renowned warriors. And sure, renowned isn't the same as skillful, but it has some translation. ABC logic is only being used loosely here - the bulk of my argument pertains to the HoT's feats, not powerscaling or accolades, and it's just something I haven't been able to elaborate on yet (I'll do so later, probably tomorrow).Also, you can quit the taunting.
2. That's also flawed logic, but as you said, we don't want to be caught up on semantic parties. The point isn't that they're incomparable accolades, I was just listing reasons as to why the HoT would rival or supersede Kyle, whereas you seemed bent on proving Kyle was superior. The accolades aren't the backbone of my argument, but in combination with the HoT's feats, they lend credence to the notion that HoT rivals or possibly exceeds Kyle in skill. All I'm interested in so far is proving that the skill territory is debatable and hasn't been claimed by anyone yet. I'll get to proving that tomorrow.
1)...so? What does that prove? Being listed as the most renown still wouldn't make more skilled than him, as the terms are far from synonymous. Even then, one statement isn't enough for me to say Mara > Kyle for certain. Or else Cin Draling is a match for GG, or Luminara is on the plain of Count Dooku as a Force user.
2. Nah. The logic isn't flawed. It's pretty eimple to grasp, tbh.
>HoT is the "greatest of his era"
>Kyle is "one of the greatest of his era"
>Put HoT in Kyle's era and he would be in Katarn's spot "one of the greatest of his era" and it's not even debatable.
>Put Kyle in HoT spot, and he's debatably "the greatest of his era"
>Because of this, the accolades aren't going to be a factor
Tell me, where is this logic flawed, exactly?
1. Which is why I admitted that renown isn't the same as skill, but suggesting that they're completely separate terms is stretching it slightly thin.
2. That's not what you said before. Anyways, if Kyle is only "debatably" the greatest of the era, then we're already seeing a disparity as the HoT is already the confirmed best of the Jedi.
And just because they can share similar accolades doesn't mean the accolades suddenly become irrelevant. It supports the notion that HoT is right up there with Kyle and that Kyle isn't necessarily more skilled. To deduce that for certain, we'll need to look at their feats, which, as I said, I'll do tomorrow, because I'm too tired to do that now.
Oh, and "one of the greatest of an era" is a very vague accolade that almost any notable, big-time Jedi has under their belt.
The disparity is pretty acute imo. The Hero was being called the greatest Jedi as early as Tython. She surpasses Orgus Din, the most veteran Jedi in the order by that point and he himself states she's more powerful than any living Jedi. She was trained by "the best" duelists/instructors and beat them all before the game even started. She's repeatedly named the best Jedi by the end of Act 1 and still has massive growth over the other 2 Acts + expansion materials.
Sunrazer also raises a good point that practically any Jedi of note is "one of the greatest of an era".
1. Maybe, maybe not. Mara could be more renown for several factor, not just limited to her dexterity with a blade, or it even being a large factor in it.
2. Well, then what was it I said, Razer? I say debatably because I'm not arrogant enough to flunt my opinion of Kyle > Hero as fact. Obviously, to me Kyle would be the best since I have Katarn as the Hero's superior, but others may feel differently, hence---- the proposition being debatable.
As for the rest of your post, meh. I'll await what you have to say later today. Not going to argue semantics, amd split hairs at this point