SWTOR vs. PT (and OT kek) Part 1
SWTOR vs. PT! (and OT kek) is a series of versus battles pitting......SWTOR force users vs. PT (and OT) force users to find out which side is the best all around.
Team SWTOR:
Darth Ekkage
Lord Scourge
Darth Baras (With Sel Makor amp)
VERSUS:
Darth Maul (SoD)
Savage Opress
Asajj Ventress
Will the Old Lords defeat their newfound foes, or will the younger generation reign supreme? Fight takes place in the Valley of the Dark Lords.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Scourge closely matching the strongest jedi in the order is pretty 👆 👆 👆
Where does her own dialogue suggest that? Other than her contemplating if her strength had decreased since she languished in prison?
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sure, but the HoT isn't 👆 👆 👆 anyone on this team tho.
Ehh. He's definitely not > Maul at this point, but the HoT being > The likes of 'Thor (the lady who has some pretty beast TK feats while weakened and defeated Terrak Ampage while very weakened,) and Satele, (the lady who is.....whatever she is,) is pretty evidential of his talents. Would that incarnation of the Hero lose to Savage? Ehh.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Scourge is Savage level at best, and Maul will deal with whomever he fights before Scourge is killing anyone here.
Maul is definitely the strongest dude on the field, but Sel-Baras isn't exactly far behind. And tbh operating under the assumption that Scourge = End of Act 2 Hero, I'm not sure Savage is besting him either.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This all ignoring the obvious growth the HoT and the rest go through post class story, which I'll admit is an iffy area.
What does this have to do with anything tbh
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Besides what you just pointed out, but for some reason do not think is evidence of superiority, you can also respond with the fact that you're just better. Sure the Wrath had help, by a pretty average Jedi, but no one doubts your superiority there. It's evident. I doubt the Wrath had much growth during this time period of just wrecking shit.
I'd wager Timmns survival and not getting lolkeked (ala Draahg and Wrath vs. Vengean,) that he'd be at least a significant enough distraction for the duration of the fight. And the growth of protags is pretty inconsistent. The Wrath flaunting his superiority over Ekkage is the Wrath flaunting his superiority over Ekkage, not much more.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ehh. He's definitely not > Maul at this point, but the HoT being > The likes of 'Thor (the lady who has some pretty beast TK feats while weakened and defeated Terrak Ampage while very weakened,) and Satele, (the lady who is.....whatever she is,) is pretty evidential of his talents. Would that incarnation of the Hero lose to Savage? Ehh.
Maul is definitely the strongest dude on the field, but Sel-Baras isn't exactly far behind. And tbh operating under the assumption that Scourge = End of Act 2 Hero, I'm not sure Savage is besting him either.
What does this have to do with anything tbh
I'd wager Timmns survival and not getting lolkeked (ala Draahg and Wrath vs. Vengean,) that he'd be at least a significant enough distraction for the duration of the fight. And the growth of protags is pretty inconsistent. The Wrath flaunting his superiority over Ekkage is the Wrath flaunting his superiority over Ekkage, not much more.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not saying Scourge isn't impressive. I'm saying Maul and Savage are more so. Ventress is more debateable for me, as Scourge does have some clear advantages.
I can certainly agree that Maul is certainly more impressive than Scourge, but Savage? Savage has very good TK and solid saber victories, but I'd wager Scourge is superior. His physical amps and enhancements via Vitiate don't give him an edge over Savage's Dathomir uberstremph boost, but I doubt Savage's strength will be too significant an edge. The biggest thing Scourge would need to worry about is TK, and even then Scourge is seemingly capable of choking out 6-7 Sith Guards without raising a finger. I doubt Savage will choke him out, tbh. Which leaves it to a contest of skill, in which Scourge probably has the edge, given his immense breadth of experience, him being an expert Juyo/Soresu duelist as far back as Revan, and closely matching the HoT, the most powerful and skilled jedi in the order at the time, moreso than the Barsen'thor and Satele Shan.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That assumption would be wrong, because despite what the log may say, it's pretty clear the HoT is in the superior position throughout the duel. That aside, I doubt even Act II HoT can face Savage head on given his TK. Baras may not be far behind Maul in power, but he's also a lot slower and less agile. Don't see why Maul wouldn't extrapolate on that and go in for the kill.
Scourge is the one on his knees to be sure, but even after the fight he explains he could have killed the Hero on Quesh, which was a way of showing the Hero that he could be trusted, and the Hero believed him. The log even says he broke off the fight, "for some reason," (or something along those lines.) It's heavily suggested from both the log and Scourge's words that he maaaaay not have been going 100% because he knew the Hero'd be instrumental in Viti's death.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Everything. She's inferior, due to aging or otherwise. She admits this.
Are you talking about Ekkage, here? If so, what does that have to do with:
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This all ignoring the obvious growth the HoT and the rest go through post class story, which I'll admit is an iffy area.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Timmns gets cornered by the same mercenaries the Wrath cuts through easily, the excuse being, "There were quite a lot of them," and that Ekkage herself would dominate. I doubt he played a major role in any duel involving her. I don't see any reason why the Wrath would make any large strides in power at this point anyway. They've already proven themselves stronger than several people that Baras himself couldn't deal with. It's not in any shape or form unbelievable that he can't out contest with Ekkage, despite all the hype she gets.
Timmns being vastly inferior to the Wrath =/= him being useless against Ekkage. Hell, he could have even been a viable meatshield. And he'd be dead if he were just that.
Spoiler:
Wyellett had Xerender help him beat Baras, and Karr stalemated Baras, but this is pre-Makor. And I'd like to assume the Makor amp is more significant than just being mentioned, considering he gave Makor the fvcking Emperor for it.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I can certainly agree that Maul is certainly more impressive than Scourge, but Savage? Savage has very good TK and solid saber victories, but I'd wager Scourge is superior. His physical amps and enhancements via Vitiate don't give him an edge over Savage's Dathomir uberstremph boost, but I doubt Savage's strength will be too significant an edge. The biggest thing Scourge would need to worry about is TK, and even then Scourge is seemingly capable of choking out 6-7 Sith Guards without raising a finger. I doubt Savage will choke him out, tbh. Which leaves it to a contest of skill, in which Scourge probably has the edge, given his immense breadth of experience, him being an expert Juyo/Soresu duelist as far back as Revan, and closely matching the HoT, the most powerful and skilled jedi in the order at the time, moreso than the Barsen'thor and Satele Shan.
Scourge is the one on his knees to be sure, but even after the fight he explains he could have killed the Hero on Quesh, which was a way of showing the Hero that he could be trusted, and the Hero believed him. The log even says he broke off the fight, "for some reason," (or something along those lines.) It's heavily suggested from both the log and Scourge's words that he maaaaay not have been going 100% because he knew the Hero'd be instrumental in Viti's death.
Are you talking about Ekkage, here? If so, what does that have to do with:
Timmns being vastly inferior to the Wrath =/= him being useless against Ekkage. Hell, he could have even been a viable meatshield. And he'd be dead if he were just that.
Spoiler:
Wyellett had Xerender help him beat Baras, and Karr stalemated Baras, but this is pre-Makor. And I'd like to assume the Makor amp is more significant than just being mentioned, considering he gave Makor the fvcking Emperor for it.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Scourge isn't contending with Obi-Wan and Anakin at once. Experience isn't going to be a win-all for anyone here, and rarely actually translates into anything.
Neither Savage nor Ventress is even beating Anakin or Kenobi alone on a consistent basis, (neither is Scourge, just that Ventress has the same trouble with one of them as both, kind of an inconsistency.) And I'm pretty sure experience translates for someone like Scourge, considering the mountains of "too powerful" jedi and sith he's killed. At the very least it's been said he can quickly and easily point out an opponent's weaknesses/quirks due to his experience/lifespan.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's really no way to lie to people with magical powers. If the HoT is winning a duel, he should easily be able to sense this. Scourge says he could have killed you on Quesh, sure. Doesn't really compare to the actual duel we see him in where he is at a disadvantage. Scourge's words don't suggest he wasn't going all out while Vitiate was watching at all, anyway.
> Argues there's no way to lie to people with magical powers.
> Reads the Revan Novel, wherein Scourge lies to Vitiate's face and keeps his intentions hidden from Vitiate for 300 years.
>kek.
And the Hero agrees that Scourge could-have-but-didn't kill him on Quesh, otherwise he wouldn't have let Scourge join him in the first place for lying. All we know that's specifically stated and implied is that:
>Scourge and The Hero were stalemating.
>Scourge decided to, "break off the fight for some reason." Could the kneeling be him, "breaking off?" Perhaps. At the very least, we know that Scourge wasn't trying to kill The Hero.
>Afterwards, Scourge explains that he can be trusted, citing that he could have killed the Hero on Quesh, and yet didn't. The Hero then uses this to deduce that Scourge is trustworthy. The Hero would have concluded otherwise if he knew the statement was indeed inaccurate.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Misread. The point is the same, though. Saying Scourge is comparable to Act II HoT, so he should be able to content with Savage is wrong, imo. The HoT doesn't even get into the big leagues until their story ends, and really a little after. Scourge has absolutely zero growth in power once he joins the crew, and displays none of it, admitting obvious inferiority by the end, him not even being able to resist Vitiate.
The Hero of Tython's significant increase in skill and power from Act 2 and Scourge's lack of significant increase are both irrelevant in this case, since my argument revolves around Scourge's performance of act 2 Hero, who is still very, very powerful. This is the dude who killed Angral, then proceeded to defeat a Child of the Emperor directly possessed by Vitiate, (Even 'Thor had evident trouble with these late-game.) This is still the most powerful and skilled jedi in the order, moreso than the Barsen'thor, who can defeat an ancient sith lord siphoning energies from hundreds of jedi whilst weakened from repeated uses of the shielding technique. The Hero's still damn good, imho parity with him at that point is at the very least parity with Savage.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why would he be dead? The Wrath isn't just going to watch while Ekkage kills him. He's be pressing the attack the entire time. Fact is, Timmns is vastly inferior to everyone see on Belsavis, and his help is inconsequential.
The Wrath wouldn't have to, "just watch." We already know that Ekkage can flicka da wrist an average jedi knight/sith lord, Timmns theoretically would have been dead if he was inconsequential. And assuming Ekkage even was occupied with the Wrath the entire time to the point where she couldn't flicka da wrist, that certainly gives Timmns ample opportunity to aid.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Wrath defeating the one of the greatest masters and his best student, alone I might add, almost three years before his prime, is a little out of Baras' league at any point before TOR proper. Karr didn't stalemate Baras. He almost killed him, iirc. Finally, Baras didn't give Sel-Makor the Emperor for an amp, although he did receive one. He game it the Emperor to get him out of the way so no one would question him being the Voice, you know, like the actual Voice. And while it may be significant, Wrath is defeating Makor, while it's possessing the actual voice, in the heart of the Nightmare Lands, as well as legions of its pawns. It's obviously not a win-all either.
1. The Wrath hasn't reached his prime yet.
2. You're right, it's nearly killed. That said, it's just as circumstantial as Kaedan capturing the Dread Masters, i.e. we don't know them. And no, Baras specifically made a deal of power with Sel-Makor, it wasn't a give-you-the-Emperor-for-free card, and Sel-Makor just amped him out of the kindness of his heart. And sure it's not a win-all, but taking Wrath's Makor feat as it is, I'd doubt Maul stacks up either.