Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Nah we won on Bush's watch, we lost and the Middle east unraveled under Obama.
Won what? ISIS was borne out of the remnants of the ousted Ba'ath party. If Bush had "won" then ISIS would never existed. Abu Muslim al-Turkmani, Abu Ayman al-Iraqi, Haji Bakr, Abu Ahmad al-Alwani, Abu Abdulrahman al-Bilawi and Abu Ali al-Anbari to name a few.
Originally posted by jaden101
Won what? ISIS was borne out of the remnants of the ousted Ba'ath party. If Bush had "won" then ISIS would never existed. Abu Muslim al-Turkmani, Abu Ayman al-Iraqi, Haji Bakr, Abu Ahmad al-Alwani, Abu Abdulrahman al-Bilawi and Abu Ali al-Anbari to name a few.
We had Iraq on lockdown. ISIS sprouted up after the troop withdraw. We should have stayed over and finished the job and strengthened Baghdad. We really needed to get them stronger. They wanted freedom from oppression from Sadaam, and now they being wiped out by ISIS.
I do hope we didn't actually *spend* that much- it may have been the initial plan, but the cost of training 5k people doesn't get spent if you don't get 5k people.
And.... honestly, the US sucks at intervention. We failed to make a loyal Iraq ally, we're not doing any better here, maybe we should just get out of the game? Or at least spend more effort figuring out what really works before jumping in, because right now, we don't got it. I think Gulf War 1 and Bosnia are the only real successful ones in recent memory.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
We had Iraq on lockdown. ISIS sprouted up after the troop withdraw. We should have stayed over and finished the job and strengthened Baghdad. We really needed to get them stronger. They wanted freedom from oppression from Sadaam, and now they being wiped out by ISIS.
And there's a couple reasons that didn't happen. Blackwater and such really soured Iraqi opinion to us, so rather than the government wanting our support, they wanted us gone, the US people largely were getting fed up with the casualties and costs (3 trillion), and Baghdad got Bush to agree to an exit-time which Obama stuck to without really trying to renegotiate. We didn't spend much on actual building of Iraqi infrastructure either- we opened things to foreign corporations (and, ironically, non-US ones ended up making a huge chunk of those) hoping they'd do it, but of course, it didn't work out that conveniently, because repairing wartorn countries is not much of a short-term source of profit, as vital as it is. So we had a weak Baghdad with shakey feelings towards us, in no small part to the contractors we brought in, and thus getting no-where near our intended objectives.
Why cant you criticize Obama, are you that bias?
I give Obama when praise is due, this will be a $1.1 billion dollar buffoonery and you say that?
You really disappoint me Q. Like really.. Its sad you CANNOT give criticism when it is DUE.
YOU DEFER TO ITS the "US's Fault."
WHO THE **** IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF IN CHARGE OF THIS OPERATION?
I almost never want to talk to you again.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
We had Iraq on lockdown. ISIS sprouted up after the troop withdraw. We should have stayed over and finished the job and strengthened Baghdad. We really needed to get them stronger. They wanted freedom from oppression from Sadaam, and now they being wiped out by ISIS.
Had Iraq on lockdown? There was an insurgency from the moment the western nations went in to the moment they left and it's still going yet. There was practically daily car bombings in Baghdad at the height of US troop numbers. They barely had the safe zone on lockdown, never mind anywhere else.
Staying would've been a no win situation as well both politically and militarily. More and more US and allied troops would've been killed and injured. More calls for withdrawal and more political fallout regardless of whether they stayed or left.
Now they do the half hearted drone strikes that left Yemen in such a peachy state of affairs and get slated for it. If they send in troops they'd get slated for it. If they don't send in troops they get slated for it. If they try and support rebel groups in Syria they get slated for it. If they don't do enough to support rebel groups they get slated for it. They can't support Assad or they'd get slated. Cant fight Assad or...well...you get my point
slated
Yea good idea, go belly up instead of doubling down and finishing the job.
I know you nor anyone here else gives two shits about them men and women of the US military, so I don't wanna hear two shits about "Oh we are tired of the deaths of our service members."
And you know what since everyone here cares more about Muslims then US Soliders, Look how many Muslims are dying now because of this abomination.
Hey just a $500,000,000 loss, time to "re think" before we drop another $600,000,000.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-administration-rethinks-syria-strategy-1442533644
Fcking retarded.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Why cant you criticize Obama, are you that bias?
What? I just said his project here is a failure and he hasn't had a single successful intervention. That includes Libya, btw.
I hate that psmith taught you to use that word wrongly, now you're gonna think you know how to use it.
YOU DEFER TO ITS the "US's Fault."
Because we helped make this situation in Iraq, yes. That is one of the several factors that helped lead to this, as like jaden101 said, Isis is full of former ba'ath party people that we let go.
WHO THE **** IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF IN CHARGE OF THIS OPERATION?
Obama, of course.
This is a failure, I just said that in the post that caused you to blow up. Obama utterly failed to stop the Syrian crisis from getting out of hand and spilling into Iraq.
The Iraq war also failed to build a strong Baghdad- you know, the thing you said we needed to help here- and that's on us.
It's kinda funny that I agreed with you on several major points, and that causes you to blow up.
Time-ImmemorialI know you nor anyone here else gives two shits about them men and women of the US military, so I don't wanna hear two shits about "Oh we are tired of the deaths of our service members."
Way to put words in people mouths.
And you know what since everyone here cares more about Muslims then US Soliders, Look how many Muslims are dying now because of this abomination.
Yes, this is also true! We have had two operations in this region and yet we still have this abomination that is Isis around! I agree. I agree Obama failed to stop it.
There are so many people that can be rightfully blamed for contributing to, or at least failing to stop, this situation!
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yea good idea, go belly up instead of doubling down and finishing the job.I know you nor anyone here else gives two shits about them men and women of the US military, so I don't wanna hear two shits about "Oh we are tired of the deaths of our service members."
And you know what since everyone here cares more about Muslims then US Soliders, Look how many Muslims are dying now because of this abomination.
What gibberish are you spouting now? That you actually want US troops to go in and die in huge numbers fighting an enemy they couldn't beat the first time they tried?
If you come up with a winning formula to fix the shitfest caused by going in the last time and that doesn't turning then entire middle east to glass then go ahead.
Originally posted by Q99
What? I just said his project here is a failure and he hasn't had a single successful intervention. That includes Libya, btw.I hate that psmith taught you to use that word wrongly, now you're gonna think you know when to use it.
Because we helped make this situation in Iraq, yes. That is one of the several factors that helped lead to this, as like jaden101 said, Isis is full of former ba'ath party people that we let go.
Obama, of course.
This is a failure, I just said that in the post that caused you to blow up. Obama utterly failed to stop the Syrian crisis from getting out of hand and spilling into Iraq.
The Iraq war also failed to build a strong Baghdad- you know, the thing you said we needed to help here- and that's on us.
It's kinda funny that I agreed with you on several major points, and that causes you to blow up.
Way to put words in people mouths.
Yes, this is also true! We have had two operations in this region and yet we still have this abomination that is Isis around! I agree. I agree Obama failed to stop it.
There are so many people that can be rightfully blamed for contributing to, or at least failing to stop, this situation!
You previously said the US failed, and blamed it on the country..I have psmith on ignore so I didn't pick anything up from him. He's a god damn troll and I won't give him any attention.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Yea good idea, go belly up instead of doubling down and finishing the job.
Hey just a $500,000,000 loss, time to "re think" before we drop another $600,000,000.
These are really contradictory.
"We need to double-down, not go belly-down!"
"They've decided to spend twice as much money and form a better strategy, how dumb!"
Do you want more intervention or less? You seem confused on the subject, and mad at them for doing exactly what you just said you wanted them to do the post before.
Originally posted by jaden101
What gibberish are you spouting now? That you actually want US troops to go in and die in huge numbers fighting an enemy they couldn't beat the first time they tried?If you come up with a winning formula to fix the shitfest caused by going in the last time and that doesn't turning then entire middle east to glass then go ahead.
Thats not what I said..do you really believe we should just abandon Iraq and Afghanistan because of some American blood shed?
Guess what I don't. And neither do the people who sign up for the Military. I was one of them, I know the costs.
We could have freed those people! Now its all down the drain and $8 Trillion later.
Originally posted by Q99
These are really contradictory."We need to double-down, not go belly-down!"
"They've decided to spend twice as much money and form a better strategy, how dumb!"
Do you want more intervention or less? You seem confused on the subject, and mad at them for doing exactly what you just said you wanted them to do the post before.
I see what you did and it wont work.
I was talking about Iraq and Afghanistan. Not Iraq and Afghanistan vs Syria failures of this idiotic strategy.
You are horribly dishonest and a weak forum manipulator, you can't manipulate what I say and strawman to a win.
Fail again.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Thats not what I said..do you really believe we should just abandon Iraq and Afghanistan because of some American blood shed?
Guess what I don't. And neither do the people who sign up for the Military. I was one of them, I know the costs.We could have freed those people! Now its all down the drain and $8 Trillion later.
We could have if we'd done the things that'd likely have a good result- invest in their infrastructure, befriend the people, *not* give Blackwater a free reign for violence.
We didn't. Bush had already agreed to the Iraqi government's pull-out date.
We could've stayed longer, but length of stay was just part of the problem. If one wants to nation build, one has to nation build, not just sit on a country with an army and hope it rebuilds itself, and that's what we were doing.
We could have, and we didn't, and we should acknowledge our failures and mistakes. Just as Vietnam failed because of numerous problems with both command and our allies, Iraq failed because we didn't go there to build a strong Iraq.
Obama does what he wants, the argument "Oh Bush signed it" dont work anymore. Obama has executive authority.
Obama could have stayed and finished the job. He knew pulling out would destabilize the entire middle east. All of his commanders advised him against this.
A strong Iraq could have been a counter balance to Iran, now Iran will arise as the strongest nation in the middle east and will have nukes in 10.2 years.
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Thats not what I said..do you really believe we should just abandon Iraq and Afghanistan because of some American blood shed?
Guess what I don't. And neither do the people who sign up for the Military. I was one of them, I know the costs.We could have freed those people! Now its all down the drain and $8 Trillion later.
So how would you go about it then?
And since when was it ever about freeing "those people"?
