Ushgarak said:
Of course we have free will, it is the lynchpin of the film.
We may be arguing semantics to some degree, but if what you say is true, then why is it that in the first film Neo can only fulfill his DESTINY (the opposite of “free will”) by following the Oracles PREORDAINED PROPHECY?
The notions of Prophecy, Algorithms, Destiny and Fate are ALL incompatible with the notion of “free will”.
Atoms obey the laws of physics.
You are made of atoms.
You obey the laws of physics.
It’s all just cause and effect – isn’t it?
Obviously you were not paying attention to the second film. Everyone has choice- that is the point. The ONLY things the Oracle can see are those things ALREADY decided by these people who have these choices. Anything BEYOND the boundary of choice, like whether Trinity died, is not known sand cannot be seen. And as the Architect describes, without free will there could be no Matrix.
The Prophecy is manipulation. That is compatiable with free well. Destiny and Fate are both presented as things where choices have already been made. That is free will in process! Algorithm is attempted prediction. That is also free will as it is not certain.
There is most certainly free will there.
Ushgarak said:
Obviously you were not paying attention to the second film. Everyone has choice- that is the point.
Choice <> “Free will”
Computer programs also make CHOICES, are you claiming that computer programs have “free will”?
The question is WHY do we make the choices that we do? (what is the cause leading to the effect?)
The ONLY things the Oracle can see are those things ALREADY decided by these people who have these choices. Anything BEYOND the boundary of choice, like whether Trinity died, is not known sand cannot be seen.
The notion of PROPHECY/DESTINY/FATE is completely incompatible with the notion of “free will”. The former are ALL reliant on the premise of DETERMINISM. Events in the future are JUST as fixed as events in the past.
And as the Architect describes, without free will there could be no Matrix.
I don’t recall the Architect making any mention of “free will”. Could you refresh my memory?
How do you account for the Merovinginians speech which directly contradicts what you are saying? What about the dialogues with the Oracle (from the first and 2nd film? How about the character of Morpheous? Are you claiming that Morpheous is NOT a Fatalist?
And … as I stated in my previous post, doesn’t Neo accept his Fate/Destiny in the climatic conclusion of the first film? It is impossible to prophesize a future accurately unless that future is based on a set o objective rules (like a programming language, or [alternately] like the laws of physics)
The Prophecy is manipulation. That is compatiable with free well. Destiny and Fate are both presented as things where choices have already been made. That is free will in process! Algorithm is attempted prediction. That is also free will as it is not certain.There is most certainly free will there.
Could you define what you mean by “free will”? In my experience, people who claim to possess this magical ability are NEVER able to define what it means without contradicting themselves in the process.
What is it about the atoms that make up YOUR brain that is different from atoms in a beaker in a laboratory some where? Don’t “your” atoms obey EXACT the same laws that other atoms obey? How can you claim to possess any more “free will” than the Moon (or some other “inanimate” object) has?
Even modern physics (i.e. Einstein, Heisenberg, et al.) reduce consciousness to the role of OBSERVER. As Einstein himself stated God does not play dice with the Universe.
… and even if She did, that still wouldn’t be FREE will, it would only be RANDOM will.
Your babbling about atoms is irrelevant to determinism and, in any case, ignores Chaos Theory which tore a lot of that stuff to pieces.
Sentient choice IS free will and if you do not know that then you really need to get back to basics.
The entire rest of your post can be answered if you do me the courtesy of reading my one before again.
Ushgarak said:
Your babbling about atoms is irrelevant to determinism and, in any case, ignores Chaos Theory which tore a lot of that stuff to pieces.
Think again, chaos theory says nothing about Determinism per sae. Chaos theory only says that you cannot predict the output of a complex system based on incomplete information.
For example you probably can’t guess my favorite flavor of ice cream, but I bet my mother or my wife can.
Sentient choice IS free will and if you do not know that then you really need to get back to basics.
Perhaps you will enlighten me then …
… since you seem to be the expert?
Why don’t you start by explaining why you believe your atoms (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen) are more special than other atoms? What gives your atoms their magic “free will” powers that is lacking in other atoms?
What makes you believe you have more “free will” than the Moon does?
The entire rest of your post can be answered if you do me the courtesy of reading my one before again.
I did re-read your posts, but I am not sure what (specifically) you are referring too?
As a Fatalist I do not see any difference between your actions, and the actions of ANY other algorithm that is running. It is all simply cause and effect based on a set of rigidly objective rules (The Laws of Physics).
You are just repeating yourself now.
Chaos Theory has led Hawking to comment that God DOES play dice after all, for a start, and it is the only scientific branch that can reasonably be applied to philsophical determinism.
I cannot believe you would compare the acitivity of sentient life (which science cannot define) with the moon. It is a broken comparison, like comparing blue with square. I am a sentient being, THAT is why I have free will, and the film re-iterates this in many places. Sentient thought process is superior to the mere analysis of atoms and it is very blind to think otherwise. I do not claim to be an expert, though. I would say there is a lot we do not know. But YOU are the one who wants to deal in certainties so clearly you wish to be more of an expert than I.
Every single thing you mention from the film that you think proves there no free will I alrerady pointed out in my previous post is actually free will after all. Morpheus is not a Fatalist in the way you think. This brand of determinism relies on ALREADY MADE CHOICES. Which is what I already said. Already made choices do not impinge upon free will at all, in fact they depend on them.
And the Prophecy was wrong, wasn't it, so what sort of fatalism was that? Neo did NOT return to the Source as the Prophecy said as he chose not to. The only parts of his destiny that were certain were the ones the Architect had manipulated to be. Manipluation is NOT determinism, it is simply the clash of free wills.
Thw Laws of Physics are under continual question and have bog all to do with sentience. You have a right to be a fatalist, of course, but your thoughts appear to only be half-formed and so easily dismissed. Still, maybe that was inevitable, huh?
The latest Matrix film is the VINDICATION of free will against what appeared to be a deterministic world. As soon as the Oracle said she could not look beyond choices already made this was so. So it is not a film compatible with your beliefs.
Ushgarak said:
Chaos Theory has led Hawking to comment that God DOES play dice after all, for a start, and it is the only scientific branch that can reasonably be applied to philsophical determinism.
So if a person randomly runs red lights they have “free will”?
Are random number generating programs really “random”?
I cannot believe you would compare the activity of sentient life (which science cannot define) with the moon.
Both the Moon and a “sentient life” are made of atoms which in turn are made of Energy. Science really hasn’t defined Energy either, yet we still have an understanding of what the Moon is.
It is a broken comparison, like comparing blue with square. I am a sentient being, THAT is why I have free will, and the film re-iterates this in many places.
Asserting your point <> proving your point
Sentient thought process is superior to the mere analysis of atoms and it is very blind to think otherwise. I do not claim to be an expert, though. I would say there is a lot we do not know. But YOU are the one who wants to deal in certainties so clearly you wish to be more of an expert than I.
I am but a humble algorithm.
Every single thing you mention from the film that you think proves there no free will I already pointed out in my previous post is actually free will after all. Morpheus is not a Fatalist in the way you think. This brand of determinism relies on ALREADY MADE CHOICES. Which is what I already said. Already made choices do not impinge upon free will at all, in fact they depend on them.
When you “choose” to respond to my post, did you also “choose” to respond in English, or was that Fate? Did you get to “choose” who your parents were?
Aren’t all of your choices merely the deterministic result of the Laws of Physics, and the Initial State prior to (or at the moment of) the Big Bang?
And the Prophecy was wrong, wasn't it, so what sort of fatalism was that? Neo did NOT return to the Source as the Prophecy said as he chose not to.
I think it remains to be seen if the prophecy was wrong.
… The only parts of his destiny that were certain were the ones the Architect had manipulated to be. Manipluation is NOT determinism, it is simply the clash of free wills.
That is true, but unless you are claiming that the Architect represents a truly omnipotent “God”, then this is exactly what you would expect.
You deal with other humans on a daily basis, sometimes you manipulate them (their behavior), sometimes they manipulate your behavior, but these entanglements between your atoms and theirs do not contradict the notion of determinism, or imply that you are somehow able to defy the laws of physics.
The Laws of Physics are under continual question and have bog all to do with sentience. You have a right to be a fatalist, of course, but your thoughts appear to only be half-formed and so easily dismissed. Still, maybe that was inevitable, huh?
Perhaps you will demonstrate your half-formed ability to dismiss the Laws of Physics for us then???
The latest Matrix film is the VINDICATION of free will against what appeared to be a deterministic world. As soon as the Oracle said she could not look beyond choices already made this was so.
Actually what She said was that NEO (nor anyone else) could SEE beyond choices that they did not comprehend.
This was reiterated in the scene with the Merovingian when he went on at some length regarding how it was the WHY that was truly important (i.e. the causes leading up to an event that determine the event itself).
"Perhaps you will demonstrate your half-formed ability to dismiss the Laws of Physics for us then???"
Jesus, WHAT an arrogant statement! You assume the laws of physics state we cannot have free will- well I know several highly qualified physicists who would find that a laughable amount of bullcrap. Your dismissal of choas theory as mere randomness is kindergarten as well.
You also seem to be trying to make out that just because SOME things are beyond our control we have no free will. A five year old could see the fault in that.
"Asserting your point <> proving your point"
A very immature way to try and make yourself clever and a laughable way to attack my points by quoting one sentence out of context.
Now, this is getting tiresome. This is not a forum for you to try and inflict your beliefs on the rest of us. If you want to think th laws of physics are on your side feel free, and I shall pity you. But the FILM is about the operation of free will and no matter what you say, the Prophecy said that Neo WOULD return to the Source and free Zion. He didn't. Prophecy buggered, even a reason for that given,(as opposed to all previous times when the Prophecy was the same and worked out just fine). The END.
This has now gone massively off-topic and I do not want this debate to ruin it any further; I have no intention of wasting time doing so myself. Go to a general philosophy discussion forum if you want and see how far you get there. This part of the thread is done with, attempts to keept his argument going will be edited.
Well returning to the original subject then, why is it that none of the “Humans” (with the possible exception of Neo) is able to discern a difference between any of the other “Humans” and the “Programs” (other than the ear-pieced Agents)?
What specifically is the difference between a person and an algorithm [in your mind]?
Does the Merovingian have “free will”? How about Persephone? How about the Oracle?
If you answer “Yes” does that mean they are actually humans also? … or are you saying that some algorithms have “free will”?
Ushgarak said:
In the Matrix, everyone is just code so the only way to tell the difference would be by behaviour, which could be hard.I do not see what that free will question has to do with the topic.
My point is that if it is impossible to tell the difference between a computer program and a human consciousness in what way is there a difference?
I think it is one of the major points that the films are trying to make. IMHO
Me said:
My point is that if it is impossible to tell the difference between a computer program and a human consciousness in what way is there a difference?Ushgarak replied:
Of course there is a difference. Objective fact is superior to perceived fact.
Objective fact = Observed (Perceived) fact
Doesn’t it?
How else can a fact be established as a fact unless we can both observe the phenomena?
If you can’t discern ANY difference between two objects in what way can you claim there is a difference? Similarly if you cannot tell the difference between a human consciousness and an algorithmic consciousness then in what way is there a difference from your point of view?
No, objective fact does NOT equal perceived fact; perception by its very nature is SUBJECTIVE. I do not really care about point of view in such a situation, Just because I do not see a difference does not mean there isn;t one. Objective fact is a VITAL concept in philosophy. There is an essay about it on the Matrix website; I recommend you go check it.
But I still fail to see the connection with the topic.
Ushgaraksaid:
No, objective fact does NOT equal perceived fact; perception by its very nature is SUBJECTIVE. I do not really care about point of view in such a situation, Just because I do not see a difference does not mean there isn;t one. Objective fact is a VITAL concept in philosophy.
But we aren’t talking about Subjective verses Objective (are we?)
You are saying that even if there is NO Objective difference between two things (like computer consciousness and human consciousness) that there is still an intangible (subjective?) difference anyway.
Okay, so what is the intangible Subjective difference, and why should I believe it exists?
Errr... no, I was saying that just because there is no subjective difference it does not mean there is no objective difference, and objective difference is superior. You do nto, btw, have ANY reason to believe in an objective fact that differs from your own subjective reasoning but when obersving others you will see these things clearly.
But... you know... I would love to talk about this all night but this is reallyt not the place to do it.
Ushgaraksaid:
Errr... no, I was saying that just because there is no subjective difference it does not mean there is no objective difference, and objective difference is superior.
Okay, then what is the Objective difference between The Oracle, or Persephone, or any of the other non-agent programs and Trinity, Morpheous, etc.?
In their behavior, what is objectively different? What is the objective difference that gives the humans “free will”, but not the other identical seeming Algorithms?