Originally posted by ILSSo superior Control but inferior Alter, or rather superior powers of the body but inferior powers of mind and manipulation as they are now calling them. I can agree with that, however it doesn't mean Vader can dominate him with these abilities.
You'd do well to interpret me properly if you're going to call me retarded, LAL.Luke's raw power and potential > Vader's. How it manifests is through Luke's Force augmentation, which put Vader on his ass in spite of Vader also having augmented armor and a Sith amulet.
Vader's actualized power in abilities like TK, telepathy etc >>>>> Luke's.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
@DC, Luke isn't really in any position to make objective claims on what Vader could or would have done, especially in the contexts of a desperate situation where he is speaking out of self-depreciation for his ability to challenge powerful Force users i.e. he's underrating himself, a moment of self-doubt.There are plenty of more objective and impartial sources that claim otherwise. First off there is what Vader actually believed:Guess he was mistaken, right?
Then there are various objective out-of-universe sources:And for the record? Vader was not holding back, he was pissed and prepared to kill:I fail to see why Vader would hold back on TK if he intended to put the fear of God into him.
So sure, let's put this silly notion to rest shall we?
EDIT: Another quote to add the the pile:And credit to ShootingNova for most of these quotes. 👆
ROTJ Novel's really outdated tbh. Unless you believe Uncle Owen is Kenobi's brother.
A lot's been revamped since then. Lucas in the ROTJ audio commentary states Luke wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader yet (scene where Luke visits Yoda).
In any case Vader was never going to TK Stomp Luke even if he could. He was attempting to turn Luke to the dark side, have him lash out in anger. Choking him out would accomplish nothing. He needed to fight him on even terms.
And their whole fight was a Saber only fight. Not once was TK used. Luke >/= Vader in Sabers, and no ones really questioning that (I don't think).
Originally posted by Darth ThorLucas presumably reviewed and green lighted the novels himself though, and obviously the script. Plot related retcons like Uncle Owen is one thing, but I find it very unlikely Lucas would have gone back on something so fundamental.
ROTJ Novel's really outdated tbh. Unless you believe Uncle Owen is Kenobi's brother.A lot's been revamped since then. Lucas in the ROTJ audio commentary states Luke wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader yet (scene where Luke visits Yoda).
Essentially there is not necessarily a contradiction here, for one Luke evidently wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader, otherwise he wouldn't have been manipulated (using telepathy no less) into using the dark side.
However its evident from the fact that Vader didn't tool him a la ESB, and instead fights evenly with him, that he was equipped in some ways. The fact that Yoda tells him he has nothing more to learn, that Vader tells him his skills are complete, indicating the same.
In any case Vader was never going to TK Stomp Luke even if he could. He was attempting to turn Luke to the dark side, have him lash out in anger. Choking him out would accomplish nothing. He needed to fight him on even terms.Vader wanted to press Luke into using the dark side, and convince him that he was prepared to kill. Telekinetically dominating him would have pushed Luke to desperation (calling for desperate measures) and make him aware of Vader as a deadly threat, I fail to see how that wouldn't facilitate all his goals.
Indeed Vader had no qualms in overpowering him with TK in ESB. It's called Dun Moch.
Bearing in mind that Luke's inferior TK, which I acknowledge, does not mean inferior Force defenses, these are entirely different spheres of ability. And there are plenty of others ways Luke could have defended himself (evasion, barriers etc.) without engaging in a direct contest.
And their whole fight was a Saber only fight. Not once was TK used. Luke >/= Vader in Sabers, and no ones really questioning that (I don't think).A lightsaber duel yes, but one in which Vader was bringing his "full strength and power" to bear. This is a battle between two Djem So duelists, as much a battle of strength as of skill. An individual "nowhere near" Vader's level of power is simply not going to be capable of withstanding such a barrage, they would be overpowered.
Luke's ability to match, if not surpass Vader's Force augmentative abilities demonstrates comparable Force mastery in that respect.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lucas presumably reviewed and green lighted the novels himself though, and obviously the script. Plot related retcons like Uncle Owen is one thing, but I find it very unlikely Lucas would have gone back on something so fundamental.Essentially there is not necessarily a contradiction here, for one Luke evidently wasn't fully equipped to take on Vader, otherwise he wouldn't have been manipulated (using telepathy no less) into using the dark side.
Nah he said Physically and Mentally not prepared for this challenge due to the amount of time he'd been training as a Jedi.
Lucas greenlighting something 30 years ago < His own commentary 10 years ago after he'd just finished all 6 movies.
Never underestimate what Lucas can retcon.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
However its evident from the fact that Vader didn't tool him a la ESB, and instead fights evenly with him, that he was equipped in some ways. The fact that Yoda tells him he has nothing more to learn, that Vader tells him his skills are complete, indicating the same.Vader wanted to press Luke into using the dark side, and convince him that he was prepared to kill. Telekinetically dominating Luke would have pushed him to desperation (calling for desperate measures) and aware of Vader as a deadly threat, I fail to see how that wouldn't facilitate all his goals.
Indeed Vader had no qualms in overpowering him with TK in ESB.
Yes he was clearly equipped to fight on even terms with him (in some ways). But if Vader went all out to kill Luke none of that would have mattered.
Vader and Yoda's comments were in reference to Luke being ready for his Knight level trials (Luke states "So I am a Jedi?" to Yoda). Anakin was Knight level in TCW Movie. That didn't mean he could defeat Count Dooku already. Challenge him? Sure. Defeat him? There was a possibility I guess, but pretty unlikely at that point.
It's all speculation about what Vader could or couldn't have displayed with his TK in ROTJ. Because fact is he didn't display any. And like you correctly pointed out, he did in ESB.
You honestly think newly trained Knight level Luke had comparable TK to Vader, the guy with better TK Feats than any Jedi sans Yoda? The guy who crushed AT-AT's and X-Wings?
At the very least it's Vader's most potent weapon in combat and yet he didn't utilize it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Indeed Vader had no qualms in overpowering him with TK in ESB.Bearing in mind that Luke's inferior TK, which I acknowledge, does not mean inferior Force defenses, these are entirely different spheres of ability. And there are plenty of others ways Luke could have defended against Vader's TK (evasion, barriers etc.) without engaging in a direct contest.A lightsaber duel yes, but one in which Vader was bringing his "full strength and power" to bear. This is a battle between two Djem So duelists, as much a battle of strength as of skill. An individual "nowhere near" Vader's level of power is simply not going to be capable of withstanding such a barrage, they would be overpowered.
Luke's ability to match, if not surpass Vader's Force augmentative abilities demonstrates comparable Force mastery in that respect.
Force is applicable in different areas. Clearly Luke was a match for Vader in Sabers (which itself does require Force Powers), but not in TK, which Vader is a total beast in. TK is clearly his most potent weapon, which again he didn't even attempt to use. And he clearly had plenty of opportunities in the fight to at least Force Push Luke.
But we didn't see any of that.
So I would suggest just like TCW Movie Anakin was a fully trained Knight, and seemed to be a match (or almost a match) for Dooku in Sabers, yet clearly wasn't his overall equal, that the same applies to ROTJ Luke vs Vader.
Originally posted by ILS
You'd do well to interpret me properly if you're going to call me retarded, LAL.
Originally posted by ILS
Luke's raw power and potential > Vader's. How it manifests is through Luke's Force augmentation, which put Vader on his ass in spite of Vader also having augmented armor and a Sith amulet. Vader's actualized power in abilities like TK, telepathy etc >>>>> Luke's.
Well, yeah - I can agree with this. Luke's the slightly superior duelists and physical threat, while Vader mastery of the Force and such is far more powerful than Luke's.
E.I. he could be Luke through the Force if he was inclined to. 👆
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I said if you were suggesting Luke is > Vader in Force, then you are retarded. 👆
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
while Vader mastery of the Force and such is far more powerful than Luke's.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
E.I. he could be Luke through the Force if he was inclined to. 👆
I think you mean TK. Not the Force, which is used in all aspects of combat including Saber fighting.
Well, yeah. When I say "in Force" I'm usually referring to TK if that's the only notable power the opponent can actually use to win.
I did say Luke is the superior duelist(which ties into stuff like precognition/premonitions) and other Sense retaled Force powers. As well as physical capabilities. Vader has Luke beat in all literally all other aspects of the Force and mastery with it, though. From Force Barrier, and Absorption, to Telekinetic strength, and telepathic potency.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader has Luke beat in all literally all other aspects of the Force and mastery with it, though. From Force Barrier, and Absorption, to Telekinetic strength, and telepathic potency.
👆
And that's nothing against Luke. But a newly trained Knight simply can't match someone of Vader's caliber. Just like TCW Anakin was not yet Dooku's equal (despite Anakin having tons more potential than Dooku).
Originally posted by Darth ThorDon't suppose you have the quote?
Nah he said Physically and Mentally not prepared for this challenge due to the amount of time he'd been training as a Jedi.Lucas greenlighting something 30 years ago < His own commentary 10 years ago after he'd just finished all 6 movies.
Never underestimate what Lucas can retcon.
Yes he was clearly equipped to fight on even terms with him (in some ways). But if Vader went all out to kill Luke none of that would have mattered.But according to the novel he did... unless George contradicts this in his commentary as well.
It's all speculation about what Vader could or couldn't have displayed with his TK in ROTJ. Because fact is he didn't display any. And like you correctly pointed out, he did in ESB.I agree with that to an extent, though it makes me wonder why you claim Vader could have housed him as implied above.
However on the other hand the fact that he didn't choose to use TK, for no logical reason I can fathom, suggests it wouldn't have been as effective as you believe.
You honestly think newly trained Knight level Luke had comparable TK to Vader, the guy with better TK Feats than any Jedi sans Yoda? The guy who crushed AT-AT's and X-Wings?Nope, covered below. Although Sas is prolly right when he said Vader didn't crush those X-Wings, but rather it was the debris he used to shield himself we see explode.
At the very least it's Vader's most potent weapon in combat and yet he didn't utilize it.Exactly, which begs the question why.
The idea that he didn't want to be too hard on Luke seems illogical.
Force is applicable in different areas. Clearly Luke was a match for Vader in Sabers (which itself does require Force Powers), but not in TK, which Vader is a total beast in. TK is clearly his most potent weapon, which again he didn't even attempt to use. And he clearly had plenty of opportunities in the fight to at least Force Push Luke.My point being that Luke doesn't have to match him in TK to defend against TK, speed, endurance, Force defenses etc. are all effective counters, and evidently Vader didn't think his powers would be all that effective considering he chose not to apply them, despite, as you say, having plenty of opportunities.But we didn't see any of that.
i.e. the ESB tactic wasn't going to cut it anymore against a new and improved Luke.
So I would suggest just like TCW Movie Anakin was a fully trained Knight, and seemed to be a match (or almost a match) for Dooku in Sabers, yet clearly wasn't his overall equal, that the same applies to ROTJ Luke vs Vader.I can agree with that, my argument is not that Luke is equal in Force mastery to Vader, only that he is in some important respects, and in that way, is not far off him as a Force user, and certainly not about to be dominated by Vader in the same way he was dismantled by Gethzerion.
Heck in your very example we have Dooku seemingly unable to dominate Anakin with his Force powers, as he was able to do in AoTC, its not an option anymore.
Isn't Vader > Gethz though?
Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.
http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Isn't Vader > Gethz though?Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.
http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp
Mmm, that's from my RT, but now that I think of it, I honestly don't know how reliable the source would be, though Vader being more powerful than the other people I mentioned is obvious, and doesn't need such quotes. As with some other accolades, I added it more for completeness than anything else, but if you want to discuss its validity, be my guest.
Neat quote, Gethzerion used some kind of spell though so it was probably - like with Sith sorcery - more difficult for an inexperienced Luke to defend against. Vader's certainly never demonstrated that kind of ability.
EDIT: As for its validity, the commentary is pretty extensive so its not so kind of off-hand tagline, and according to Chee all published Star Wars material is canon, so I'd say its valid.