Black Widow vs Speedy/Arsenal

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
the non-mooks that the Crimson archers have fought destroyed them... Not sure your point.

Also as said, Widow > May > Ward has been shown stated.
Bucky would stomp out everyone in the arrowverse outside Damien.

When has that been shown? As of now May/Ward's combat feats trump Widow's. Also getting stomped by Bucky isn't really a point in Widow's favor either.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah, like who?

Super advanced and strong aliens that were completely featless? Aliens that server as fodder? You'll have to prove those aliens were any better than the average mook they face.

BW didn't last good against WS. She only lasted as long as she did because she took him by surprise.

Now, keeping all that in mind, you're gonna have to prove any of those average mooks who served as fodder were better than the Chitauri. And this is all before we even get into the fact that she was taking on Ultrons robots in hand to hand too. Speedy and Arsenal being a match for her after taking out some random mooks is laughable.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
The have more advanced weaponry and tech, they were able to jump down from 6 story heights with no problem which suggest physiology superior to any human including Widow/Aresenal/Speedy, and they were able to take hard hits from Cap and his shield and keep coming before being taken down. Every single one of them armed with laser rifles, and Widow was still killing them left and right. Those "featless" aliens are far above anyone Arsenal or Speedy have taken.

Now, keeping all that in mind, you're gonna have to prove any of those average mooks who served as fodder were better than the Chitauri. And this is all before we even get into the fact that she was taking on Ultrons robots in hand to hand too. Speedy and Arsenal being a match for her after taking out some random mooks is laughable.

First off, I'm arguing for the h2h round. And IIRC, BW never took down any of the Chitauri in pure h2h, she had to use her stun bracelets, guns, or even a laser rifle from the Chitauri. I'll have to review the fight later on to be doubly sure though.
So killing them left and right doesn't really add much to her h2h abilities considering:

a. She used weapons to kill the Chitauri
b. The chitauri doesn't have any h2h feats. They have advanced technology and they can jump high. Big deal. A grasshopper jumps higher than a centipede.

As for the Ultron bots, Cap seemed to have an easier time taking out Ultron bots than taking out SHIELD/Hydra agents. So not sure if they're a good indication of h2h prowess.

Besides, even if we do consider the Ultronbots and Chitauri extra durable, they still have no h2h skills to speak of.

At least Speedy and Roy have gone up against LOS warriors who do fight h2h.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah, like who?

Super advanced and strong aliens that were completely featless? Aliens that server as fodder? You'll have to prove those aliens were any better than the average mook they face.

BW didn't last good against WS. She only lasted as long as she did because she took him by surprise.

Widow chumps out superhuman aliens, thus lowball them and ask for self evident evidence...

Not to mention she dropped an engine room full of hydra goons while still planning Cap's love life.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
The non mooks that defeated them would beat Widow too. She's also fighting both of them at once in the scenarios above

When has that been shown? As of now May/Ward's combat feats trump Widow's. Also getting stomped by Bucky isn't really a point in Widow's favor either.

When has 2 characters from different series interacted? Sorry, you gave me a brain ache. Again I didn't bring him up.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
the bias here is making my head hurt.

Widow chumps out superhuman aliens, thus lowball them and ask for self evident evidence...

Not to mention she dropped an engine room full of hydra goons while still planning Cap's love life.

Did Widow beat those aliens in h2h?

Originally posted by FrothByte
First off, I'm arguing for the h2h round. And IIRC, BW never took down any of the Chitauri in pure h2h, she had to use her stun bracelets, guns, or even a laser rifle from the Chitauri. I'll have to review the fight later on to be doubly sure though.
So killing them left and right doesn't really add much to her h2h abilities considering:

a. She used weapons to kill the Chitauri
b. The chitauri doesn't have any h2h feats. They have advanced technology and they can jump high. Big deal. A grasshopper jumps higher than a centipede.

As for the Ultron bots, Cap seemed to have an easier time taking out Ultron bots than taking out SHIELD/Hydra agents. So not sure if they're a good indication of h2h prowess.

Besides, even if we do consider the Ultronbots and Chitauri extra durable, they still have no h2h skills to speak of.

At least Speedy and Roy have gone up against LOS warriors who do fight h2h.

And what specific feats did those two fodder League assassins have? You're not willing to accept that Widow is as skilled as May or Ward despite them all being apart of Shield (and Widow being stated above them), so why would you assume all League Assassins are made equal? Also, I'm going to need you to post the clip. I cant remember, but I'd be willing to bet they beat them by stabbing them with an arrow or the likes as opposed to snapping their necks or knocking them out.

Also, and grasshoppers aren't shaped exactly like centipedes (not to mention they're not as aggressive and aren't made to be) and don't have to support hundreds of pounds of weight like a Chitauri or human. That comparison falls flat. The Chitauri were also falling and latching on to the sides of buildings hard enough to make the cement crumble which suggests superior strength to hold on. They are physically superior to humans. Thats pretty evident.

And you stating Cap was having more trouble with Shield just furthers my argument. It means they are trained to that level, to being able to give Cap some trouble. That includes Widow. Have you ever seen Cap struggle like that with random mooks?

The truth is Aresenal and Speedy's best feats are taking on some unnamed featless League of Shadows fodder, all of which are humans. Besides that, they've taken on a bunch of unnamed and untrained thugs. Widow has regularly taken trained agents, aliens, and machines. She was trained rigorously from a young age to do so, as opposed to the Arrow kids who were trained for a year or so well enough to take some thugs. Her fight scenes and moves alone show more skill than either of the Arrow kids. She would stomp any non-superpowered being in the arrowverse.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
The finishing blow to the Chitauri may have been a gun most of the time, but she was still besting them in hand to hand before using it. There were even scenes were she was tearing into their mechanical parts to kill them. That wasn't a stun bracelet. That was her killing them in hand to hand by tearing into their machinery. Never, in any of the Iron Man, Cap, or Avengers movies, has she had or used a stun bracelet. She had a stun baton in Ultron, but thats about it. Whats the point of a stun baton if you have a stun bracelet?

And what specific feats did those two fodder League assassins have? You're not willing to accept that Widow is as skilled as May or Ward despite them all being apart of Shield (and Widow being stated above them), so why would you assume all League Assassins are made equal? Also, I'm going to need you to post the clip. I cant remember, but I'd be willing to bet they beat them by stabbing them with an arrow or the likes as opposed to snapping their necks or knocking them out.

Also, and grasshoppers aren't shaped exactly like centipedes (not to mention they're not as aggressive and aren't made to be) and don't have to support hundreds of pounds of weight like a Chitauri or human. That comparison falls flat. The Chitauri were also falling and latching on to the sides of buildings hard enough to make the cement crumble which suggests superior strength to hold on. They are physically superior to humans. Thats pretty evident.

And you stating Cap was having more trouble with Shield just furthers my argument. It means they are trained to that level, to being able to give Cap some trouble. That includes Widow. Have you ever seen Cap struggle like that with random mooks?

The truth is Aresenal and Speedy's best feats are taking on some unnamed featless League of Shadows fodder, all of which are humans. Besides that, they've taken on a bunch of unnamed and untrained thugs. Widow has regularly taken trained agents, aliens, and machines. She was trained rigorously from a young age to do so, as opposed to the Arrow kids who were trained for a year or so well enough to take some thugs. Her fight scenes and moves alone show more skill than either of the Arrow kids. She would stomp any non-superpowered being in the arrowverse.

You're asking for a lot of stuff. Hard to post a clip of a scene that just recently aired. I'll try to find some for you though.

I think you're mistaking my argument here. I'm not saying that the arrow kids are better, I'm just saying that BW has never proven to be so far above them that she can take on both of them at the same time.

Widow has never been stated to be a better fighter than May or Ward. If it has, I'd like a direct quote please.

The truth is, BW's best feats are taking on unknown and featless fodder, alien, robot or otherwise. They're all featless, they all easily fall to the smallest of attacks. No different than the fodder the arrow kids have. You say chitauri have more durability, I say we've seen multiple LOS ninjas catch arrows in mid flight.

In the end, neither BW nor the arrow kids have extremely good h2h feats. Difference is it's a 2 vs. 1 scenario. Unless you can prove that BW has a huge advantage in skill, then 2 skilled warriors will always beat 1 skilled warrior.

Originally posted by Henry_Pym
you brought this up... I'm still not sure why

When has 2 characters from different series interacted? Sorry, you gave me a brain ache. Again I didn't bring him up.

As for that other piece it was more of an off hand observation about two characters in the same verse as one of the combatants in this thread.

Even fighting "mooks" BW displays superior skill.

Lets keep it simple. Her first scene in Avengers - can Thea replicate this?

YouTube video

Let's do a role swap - BW can replicate ALL of Thea/Red's feats EASILY, can they do the same vice versa?

Thea and Roy may not be able to shapeshift like Widow did at the 2:45 mark so admittedly they're lost on that front.

Jokes aside the argument isn't Widow against either of them, which I agree she'd win, but against both of them together. Personally I don't think Widow's skill enough in hand to hand combat to simply breeze through both of them together.

But to answer your question, oddly enough Thea/Roy could replicate everything Widow's done except the Hawkeye fight and the interogation scene that you posted.

Originally posted by Placidity
Even fighting "mooks" BW displays superior skill.

Lets keep it simple. Her first scene in Avengers - can Thea replicate this?

YouTube video

Let's do a role swap - BW can replicate ALL of Thea/Red's feats EASILY, can they do the same vice versa?

the results of the fights are what counts, you can't compare superior fight choreography from a movie to that of a tv show because obviously the movie has better budget and can make the scenes look that much better.

Originally posted by relentless1
the results of the fights are what counts, you can't compare superior fight choreography from a movie to that of a tv show because obviously the movie has better budget and can make the scenes look that much better.

No it isn't. Choreography and stunt work - AKA on-screen evidence - is largely how you determine skill and physical attributes.

Better budget goes without saying, yet has no relevance here. Do you think Thea would lose 1v1 against Black Widow? If so why? If we go with your argument, one could assert Thea is only inferior on-screen because of the show's budget, if we account for that (because of "reasons"😉 then Thea would be equal or superior to BW.

Completely off-topic - Do you support affirmative action?

Did he really just try and say that we shouldn't base skill on what we see the characters doing?

What's next, none of the Hulk's feats should count because he's CGI and TV shows can't afford to produce that level of CGI.

I don't think anyone is saying that BW can't beat either Thea or Roy 1 n 1. Just that she can't breeze through them and that she can't beat them 1 vs 2. BW may have slightly better fight feats but she just doesn't have any feats to prove she can take on 2 highly skilled combatants at the same time..After all, when has she ever taken on 2 skilled combatants or even breezed through 1?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think anyone is saying that BW can't beat either Thea or Roy 1 n 1. Just that she can't breeze through them and that she can't beat them 1 vs 2. BW may have slightly better fight feats but she just doesn't have any feats to prove she can take on 2 highly skilled combatants at the same time..After all, when has she ever taken on 2 skilled combatants or even breezed through 1?

Highly skilled is subjective.

If Green Arrow is highly skilled, I would rank Thea as a beginner. Which she actually is if you think about it. Oliver went through hell for 5 years to get to where he is in terms of skill, experience and physicality. Thea just did some stick fighting with Malcolm for a matter of months.

You can think of it this way:

Green Arrow would wreck Thea and Red together in H2H (no PIS/CIS/Holding Back).

How would BW fair against Oliver in Hand to Hand? Remember she did beat Hawkeye. I don't know the answer myself actually, but its close enough for me to have to pause and think about it.

Originally posted by Placidity
Highly skilled is subjective.

If Green Arrow is highly skilled, I would rank Thea as a beginner. Which she actually is if you think about it. Oliver went through hell for 5 years to get to where he is in terms of skill, experience and physicality. Thea just did some stick fighting with Malcolm for a matter of months.

You can think of it this way:

Green Arrow would wreck Thea and Red together in H2H (no PIS/CIS/Holding Back).

How would BW fair against Oliver in Hand to Hand? Remember she did beat Hawkeye. I don't know the answer myself actually, but its close enough for me to have to pause and think about it.

As of right now, Oliver would completely wreck either BW and Hawkeye. High end Arrow fighters easily snatch arrows out of the air. BW and Hawkeye just don't have the h2h feats to compare.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As of right now, Oliver would completely wreck either BW and Hawkeye. High end Arrow fighters easily snatch arrows out of the air. BW and Hawkeye just don't have the h2h feats to compare.

Catching an arrow while impressive, doesn't necessarily translate to H2H skill.

I don't think Loki is that great H2H (i.e without his staff).

At the same time there are many characters that can't catch an arrow, yet can beat Oliver.

You don't need to be that high end to catch one either, Huntress did it back in Season 1.

Also:

YouTube video

Now of course, the arrows this guy catches are FAR slower than what we see on Arrow, but that's besides the point.

I will agree that catching an arrow demonstrates high reaction speed and coordination (if you want to talk coordination, Hawkeye is the far superior archer), which can be used in H2H, but arrow catching does not automatically mean H2H skill, it is a practiced move.

Aside from all that, I don't see Oliver easily beating BW or Hawkeye H2H.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As of right now, Oliver would completely wreck either BW and Hawkeye. High end Arrow fighters easily snatch arrows out of the air. BW and Hawkeye just don't have the h2h feats to compare.

Originally posted by Placidity
Catching an arrow while impressive, doesn't necessarily translate to H2H skill.

I don't think Loki is that great H2H (i.e without his staff).

At the same time there are many characters that can't catch an arrow, yet can beat Oliver.

You don't need to be that high end to catch one either, Huntress did it back in Season 1.

Also:

YouTube video

Now of course, the arrows this guy catches are FAR slower than what we see on Arrow, but that's besides the point.

I will agree that catching an arrow demonstrates high reaction speed and coordination (if you want to talk coordination, Hawkeye is the far superior archer), which can be used in H2H, but arrow catching does not automatically mean H2H skill, it is a practiced move.

Aside from all that, I don't see Oliver easily beating BW or Hawkeye H2H.

What makes you think Loki isn't a good h2h fighter? He's a thousand yr old warrior who's skilled enough to go toe to toe with Thor for some time.

Catching an arrow coming from the supposedly high poundage bows that Arrow characters use is damn near impossible unless you're at a really far distance. Yes, its not exactly a h2h feat but that's a ridiculous dexterity and reaction feat.

What makes you think Hawkeye is a superior archer?

Also, name me some h2h feats of BW or Hawkeye that proves that can hang with Oliver in a fight.