Actually Im glad that ush is in the conversation. Simply for the fact that he seems to bring a more sublime look at things. I'm a big time matrix fan and I need a few counterpoints to bring me back to reality. Lord knows I might end up like some crazy dude shooting up the seven eleven because "I'm in the matrix".
Ok this is really aggrevating.here's my long ass interpertation of what the hell went on.
I'd like to start off by saying, I didn't catch the fact that Neo's mind stayed back with the source. But even if it did, and that's how he stopped the sentinals, how does that explain why the hacker infected by smith, bane, survive the sentinal slaughter?
There is only ONE MATRIX, because:
1) The Architect said that 99% of the people accepted the matrix's programming because while consciously they believed that they had choice, subconsciously they did not. This 1% of people have been and are eligible to leave the matrix by the so called "rebels" who were first freed by one of Neo's predecessors. The 23 people that the previous "ones" freed were the beginning of the New Zion. They went on to free more and more people until finally and singular anamolaic entity (the one) was found. The Architect said himself (go to another thread if you want to check out his speech with Neo) that this anamolaic entity while could not be stopped, could be predicted and therefore controlled, which lead "the one" to him. The reason Neo was lead to the Architect? Either,
a) Resistance starts building up within people and after a while the system must be "reloaded." This rebooting process can done by only "the one." If it is not done, people's resistance will build up so much that they will die, or cause the system to crash, killing them inadvertantly.
b) "The one" would be so much of a problem, and free so many minds, that the machines would die from lack of energy. While this contradicts the idea the Architect mentioned of them (the machines) being able to go on surviving without humans, it is much more efficient and easier to continue using humans as a power supply. In otherwords, it's easier for the machines to continue living off humans rather than finding the "other" way to surivive that the Architect mentioned.
2) One of the themes in the new movie is that everything has a purpose. The purpose of Zion is to facilitate the area where these one percenters go. Remember, if those one percenters stayed within The Matrix, they would wreak havoc on the system. The machines WANT them to become unplugged so that all will run smoothly.
If Zion is another matrix, or part of The Matrix, these one percenters would still foresee something "wrong" with the world and would wreak havoc on that system as well. Also, IF Zion is another matrix, why would the machines be encoded to exist on that level of the matrix?
Control?
I suppose so, but then why the massive cover up? Wouldn't it be easier to have an agent like program to keep humans undercontrol?
Another question can be posed as well, if Zion is another matrix. According myself and many other suscribers to this forum who agree with me, Zion is the place where these one percenters go so that that why won't cause a massive system failure of The Matrix. No one can argue that point. The Architect clearly pointed that out. Hypothetically speaking, if Zion is another matrix, or part of the one matrix that we all know exists, where do the one percenters of Zion go? There is always going to be someone who can see through things. That is the whole point of genetics. With any virus or epidemic disease that spreads throughout the world, there is ALWAYS going to be a handful of people who will naturally be able to resist it. It's been proven to be true as of now. There have been reported cases of people naturally fighting off HIV, an uncurable virus. These one percenters of the original Matrix are those select few who's genetic make up, or at least psyche is able to resist The Matrix. IF Zion is another matrix, then there will be once again a select few that will be able to see this.
I suppose one could argue that Neo is the one who would be able to see this. But then why didn't he see it right away when he was reborn as "the one?"
3) The Matrix within a Matrix theory is right because Smith was able to transfer himself into Bane, right?
Wrong.
In the first movie we learn that what ever happens to you in the Matrix, happens to you in the real world as well. After Neo fails the jump program, he asks Morpheus, "I thought it wasn't real?"
Morpheus: "Your mind makes it real."
Neo: "If you die in The Matrix, you die here?"
Morpheus: "The body cannot live without the mind."
So, when Smith sticks his hand in Bane and copies himself into Bane, he copies himself into Bane's code and takes control of Bane. In otherwords, Bane's mind is now controlled by Smith. What happens in The Matrix happens in the real world. So since Bane's mind was taken over by Smith in The Matrix, his mind was taken control over in the real world as well.
A more interesting question you all should be asking is: when they recieved the package, (a computer chip, i don't know what exactly it was) from the oracle to give to Neo, how did it transfer from The Matrix to the real world. Perhaps it was just information on a disk, and they were able to transfer it onto another disc, but it's still strange. Those who have played Enter The Matrix, see this again when Niobe and Ghost get the package left in the Matrix from Thaddeus, recording the Flight of the Osiris.
4) While Ush, and a few other believe the idea that Neo's mind and or code changed when he came close to the source, I did not infer that from the game at all. (Perhaps that is because i finished the game at 5am) While I don't not believe it, I am skeptical. Why was Bane rendered in the same condition as Neo, when it was Neo that brushed with the source?
What I'm implying is that when Neo jumped into Smith at the end of the first movie, something happend. Neo was copied onto Smith, and Smith onto Neo. Think about it. Neo knew that the agents were coming at the beginning of Reloaded. Neo wasn't surprised to see Smith after the Oracle left. Smith himself knew when an agent was going to arrive because during the Burly Brawl, one Smith copied himself into the agent.
AND in the teaser at the end of the movie, we see Smith being able to fly, and be just as powerful as Neo.
So, that is why Neo was able to "feel" the sentinals and stop them. It was something Smith could do, and combined with his own strength, he was able to stop them. Bane was able to do just the same, that is how he survived the slaughter they mention before, and he WAS rendered in the same state as Neo. However, the physical toll on him was too much, and that is why they become unconscious. Before, when in The Matrix, the toll was always on the mind, which Neo could handle just fine, but this time it wasn't.
For all those wacky theories out there that Neo is a machine, or a program, and that is why when he EMPed the sentinals, he hurt himself, is a bunch of baloney. If that were true, he would have died at the end of the first movie when they EMPed and killed all the sentinals that were breaking into the Neb.
There are my ideas, and I think without reasonable doubt that they are accurate. If anyone want's to dispute them, go for it, BUT you better be able to back up your arguements just as I have.
I agree 99% with Tevesh interpretation with the exceptions being:
The Architect says that the Matrix only works if humans are given a choice even IF it is only on the near subconscious level. In essence humans will only stay plugged into the Matrix, if they in a way chose it (the VR world). The remaining 1 % just do not accept this world. They behave like Neo in the beginning of M1, and just KNOWS that there is something wrong.
But it’s a paradox. The paradox creates the anomaly. But since the anomaly is systemic it can be controlled, since the One carrying the anomaly-code is still only human. So Zion is allowed to be rebuild over and over and over again, so the system has a mean of black-mailing the One to chose humanity. Essentially, when Neo chooses the “wrong” door, he goes from being the saviour of humanity to spell its doom. Or at least, that is the control measure the system tries to use against him.
The Machines allow 24 humans rebuild a new Zion. They can then free the next uncontrollable batch of humans after the Matrix has been reloaded (it raises the question, from one systemic anomaly to the next, does the Matrix only run through the 20th century?), and facilitates the means by which the Architect can black-mail the One to keep the loop going forever.
Neo chose the other door. He broke the cycle.
There is no Matrix within the Matrix. If there were, the program Architect would lie. And this far, even the “evil” programs, while evil, haven’t been lying. They just execute their commands.
On of the themes in M2 is that the real world and the Matrix are not separate worlds. While one is a simulation and the other is reality, they influence one another. The avatars bouncing around in the Matrix are “mental projections of your digital self”. Smith can and does infect bane’s digital self.
The only connection I see between Neo and Smith, is that Neo took Smith’s purpose from him. His agent-programming code was deleted. Neo can now read the programming language of the Matrix, he sees that world “without time” as the Oracle said. Agents approaching a meeting are programs drawing near, that Neo can see. Smith, who was already in M1 loosing his “mind”, so to speak, has now gone completely haywire. He’s become a virus, looking for purpose.
Bane triggered the EMP that caused the five ships who left Zion as an early attack to be completely defenceless. Bane carries Smiths code. Probably the reason why he went into a coma, and why the machines let him be. Because he reads as a Matrix entity.
Smith is no longer plugged into the system, so he has no ability to stop the sentinels anymore.
OK remember that the oracle told Neo that he just made a decision ... all right Neo interpreted this bad, she said you just made the decision but she means the decision to save TRINITY. Neo just belived that the decision she talked it was the decision to save Zion. So you see the Oracle knew that Neo will save TRIN.Dont you think?????
I think everything in this movie occurs like planning. Did u c when before the oracles left Seraph and she knew something. They knew Smith gonna come. Merovigian knows what was going to happen everyone in the movie knows everystep that neos going to do. Remember in the first fight when smith sent the audiophone to neo he said something like "it happened just like before"
Best Trinity, yes. the Oracle does know what's going to happen. She said that Neo has already made up his mind on what he will choose, but he must understand why he made that decision. As for Smith, yes, I do believe he was around for the previous anamolies, but this time, Neo destroyed him...making him into a virus. The lines are something like:
Well, that went as expected
Yes, it's happening just as before
Well, not exactly like before
That's not an exact quote, but it something like that.
Omega, you and I do agree about 99%. But, I don't understand why you think Bane when into a coma. What it because of the EMP?
Also, he wouldn't read as a matrix entity if he were out in the real world. Smith transfered his mind into a human's. he would read as any other human. Sentinals cannot read brainwaves, or interpert human psyche. they were made for one thing: "Search and destroy."
While I'll agree with you that they may have left him alone if he was in a coma, why did he (Bane) fall into a coma to begin with?
Tevesh> Hm! You have a valid point. The sentinels can’t scan Banes electro-chemical signals.
So back to start.
Who triggered the EMP that stopped the five hovercrafts?
Why did Bane survive?
Why is he in a coma?
What if Bane was an informant just like Cypher was, that is even before Smith infected him? Unfortunately we don’t see much of Bane prior to the infection, so all I have is his name to hang that assumption on 😉 But it would explain why the sentinels didn’t touch him.
But it raises the question: IF Bane was/is an informant, AND Smith has infected him, would Bane/Smith trigger the EMP? And why? What should Smith care if Zion falls or not? Is the Matrix-Smiths aware of what happens to the Bane-Smith? And vice versa?
If Smith can copy himself, why should Neo not be able to copy his digital self in the Source and essentially choose both doors in a way? So that just as Smith has a real-world copy and multiple Matrix copies, so Neo has a real-world self and a digital copy inside the Source?
Ehrm. Anyone?
Originally posted by Tevesh
What I'm implying is that when Neo jumped into Smith at the end of the first movie, something happend. Neo was copied onto Smith, and Smith onto Neo. Think about it. Neo knew that the agents were coming at the beginning of Reloaded.<snip>
So, that is why Neo was able to "feel" the sentinals and stop them.
I have no problem at all with the first part. Neo can read the Matrix - he can change it - and probably sense events too. Perfect.
But I would have a serious problem with Neo - or any human - stopping machines when they are unplugged. Even if he somehow was running the Source inside his real world brain...
The only thing I can live with would be some Neo code running inside the Matrix taking care of him outside it. Just like Smith did for himself / Bane.
And I do agree Neo changed Smith and the other way around. After all you do not truly know someone until you fight them (off-topic-ish: could be the reason Merovingian ran off instead of fighting Neo).
One more thing that could be connected to all this: why did the spoon return? We all know there is no spoon, right? Kind of fits the 'Zion is part of the Matrix' idea.
i believe the spoon was there just so neo would know that the orphan had been set free.
ONE thing that may have been of importance, but i have no clue as to what it could mean is at the end during the neo/architect discussion.
The camera movies from the actual scene into a tv, through it, and back into the actual scene. this happens i think 3 times.
The omega,
i believe that bane survived in the same manner neo did, by stopping the machines and rendering himself unconcious.
Chico is right. it was bane who set off the premature emp blast to sabatoge the counter-attack.
As for Smith, I think he will learn more of his new found powers that were "copied" from Neo. After all, we do get to see him fly in the trailer for revolutions.
Neo could have copied himself, but the question is, would he? It's one thing for a program to copy itself, but a human, with human emotions? (other than hate) There is only ONE Trinity after all 😄
The point is, though, that Neo didn't copy himself, he made a choice, just as the oracle said he would.
Tuur. the architect mentioned something about Neo that his coming to him altered his conciousness. maybe that has something to do with it.
Let me organize my thoughts and post them a bit later. i'm tired. i spent the entire night fixing my computer that sporadically decided to screw itself in the arse until it died.
Okaay, so it is Bane who triggers the EMP. Thank you for clearing that op. Although was it an accident or on purpose??
Next in line was:
Why did Bane survive?
Tevesh> But how did Bane stop the sentinels? Through his Smith connection? But how? Smith may still be able to use the backdoors of the Matrix (as we see in the end), but he¡¦s unplugged from the actual system.
Yes, there is only one Trinity ƒº. But as Neo says ¡§the problem is choice.¡¨
If we say: Okay, Smith can copy himself because his original program-purpose was deleted, or something from Neo was copied onto him, what does that mean? Neo says he¡¦s not surprised to see Smith in the beginning of M2. It didn¡¦t sound as if the sentinels attacking the five ships after the premature EMP stopped from doing anything. It was a slaughter.
So the question is perhaps: Why did the Sentinels leave Bane alone? Did he escape? Just run out a back-door? Trip over his feet and get knocked unconscious? We don¡¦t really know that Bane is in a coma, do we? (Looks at people with the game. I¡¦m not that far in it yet).
Or he ran off after the premature EMP, made his escape and when Neo collapsed so did he, because¡K ??
As for the spoon: This far I see it simply as a greeting to the fans AND a filmish trick to prevent Bane from stabbing Neo in the back. The brothers probably needed to convince even the slowest of us, that Bane really was a bad guy by then.
And perhaps a hint that the two worlds, the Matrix and the real world are not separate. We already knows what happens in the Matrix can influence those hacked into it. And Matrix programs can infect real humans.
But what Neo wants is not really purpose, is it? Smith is looking for some other kind of executive programming in a way. Hm, or maybe... I just got my hands on the trailer where it looks as if Smith flies in the end. Good ¡¨Neo¡¨, bad ¡¨Neo¡¨? It¡¦s possible.
Ok, i reached that point in the computer game.
To confirm, the Oracle says this:
Oracle: Neo's mind brushed the Source, and his mind was seperated from his body. Now he is trapped in a place between their world and ours.
Niobe: Can we get him out?
Oracle: Trinity can. But she will have to fight through hell to do it.
So, the point about Neo touching the source and leaving part of himself there is confirmed and cannot be disputed.
ok. thanks ush. so that's how neo was able to stop the sentinals.
But as The Omega pointed out, why wasn't Bane killed? and why was he unconcious?
Smith does fly at the end of the movie...in fact, they flash a scene of a subway coming in as smith is flying towards neo (taking us to a "deja vu" of the first movie when Neo jumps out of the way). Maybe Bane will play a "Cypher" type betrayal role in the next movie. Or perhaps with the help of the trio will inadvertantly bring the humans to victory.