Vader vs Palpatine Shenanigans

Originally posted by ILS
Explain Plagueis defeating Venamis.

Can't comment. I Haven't read that.

Originally posted by ILS
Muscle memory. Vos and Secura's skills were fine after having their memories erased.

Quinlan and Ayla didn't go for decades with little to no practice. Muscle memory is important certainly, but if you don't train (or don't train much) for years/decades then you're going to get rusty.

Originally posted by ILS
A) With an edge of surprise he slaughtered three of the greatest Jedi duelists ever.

Again, due to his speed (and possibly Force Scream), not skill. Plus:

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Notably Kit is able to parry a few blows before getting killed despite Palpatine being so blindingly fast and Kit's style is bad against single opponents. If Palpatine really was the uber-duber sword-master people claim, on top of all those other factors, that wouldn't have happened.

Originally posted by ILS
B) Fought evenly with someone fit to be included in the top 5 duelists spot, period, while he was drawing on an unprecedented amount of internal darkness.

Not getting into that. I've seen where that leads.

Originally posted by ILS
C) Has a close to near-even duel with the most skilled Jedi ever up to that point who has humbled other great duelists, including Dooku.

LOL. Palpatine was outclassed as a duellist by Yoda. He ditched his sabre and switched to using Force powers first chance he got.

Originally posted by ILS
D) Humuliates two highly skilled, master duelists at the same time.

Again, with super-speed and strength, not skill. I've explained this very clearly.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
In fact he uses a bunch of sloppy moves and techniques that he only gets away with because of his insane levels of Force-empowerment

Originally posted by ILS
How does any of that make Palpatine anything but skilled?

The Flash has never had a day of training in swordsmanship in his life. But give him a sword and he can cut down any swordsman you pit him against. Does that make him skilled? NO! He'd win due to his super-speed. Palpatine's the same way.

As I've said before, you need to look at not just "who won?" You also need to look at "how" they won.

Originally posted by ILS
That's really retarded man. You're losing points for this.

Says the guy who thinks the Flash must be an amazing fighter despite having no actual skill.

Originally posted by ILS
Has he f*ck.

You haven't read much about Vader clearly.

I strongly suspect he's read a lot more than you.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I strongly suspect he's read a lot more than you.

Based on what exactly? The fact that he's a complete Palpatine fanboy?

The fact he's one of the most highly respected debaters on ComicVine with dozens upon dozens of sources and years of debating experience.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
LOL. Vader IS more skilled than Palpatine. That is just logical.

1) Character/personality. Vader at his core is a fighting man. Palpatine is not. He looks down on duelling. Palpatine prefers to either manipulate from the shadows or crush his enemies with the Force. Vader has always held lightsabre duelling in high regard.

2) Palpatine had little time to train to keep his skills honed due to his position as Chancellor. Plus even if he made time who could he test himself against and how could he do so without giving himself away? Especially when, again, he doesn't even care about duelling so why would he go to such lengths to keep up his skills? Answer, he wouldn't.

3) Palpatine has never really shown much skill. Let's look at his battles:

A) Kills Agen, Tiin and Kit due to super-speed and/or stunning them with Force Scream. Notably Kit is able to parry a few blows before getting killed despite Palpatine being so blindingly fast and Kit's style is bad against single opponents. If Palpatine really was the uber-duber sword-master people claim, on top of all those other factors, that wouldn't have happened.

B) Against Mace Windu, that's a huge can of worms I'm not going to open.

C) Is outmatched by Yoda and resorts to Force powers.

D) Beats Maul and Oppress through super-speed and strength, not skill. In fact he uses a bunch of sloppy moves and techniques that he only gets away with because of his insane levels of Force-empowerment.

E) Beats Talzin yes, but she was possessing Dooku at the time, meaning she was trying to fight in an unfamiliar body and with a weapon she's not used to.

Vader by contrast has demonstrated superior duelling prowess numerous times.

There is simply nothing to suggest Palpatine is more skilled and every reason that he isn't. It doesn't fit his personality, he doesn't have time/opportunity to keep up his practise. Fanboys need to understand this.

Stop sucking Evans, Retis, and Jensaris dicks man. That video has been proved worn by so many people. What makes you look in foolish is that in every battle you just listed had circumstances to it.

A) You understand all of the saber speed, sprint speed, everything is all skill right? What do you expect him to do, out pane ce each one by one? No he doesn't have time and he has plans, and that woudl take to much time. Guess what Windu was still there parrying some of those attacks so it's not like Fisto had a one on one deul, Sidious had to break through the defenses to get to him. Book Movie whatever,mSidious and Windu were equal. Once speed was equal there had to be a show of skill and guess what Sidious met that skill level.

Mace yes that is a discussion not wanted.

Yoda. Guess what he was even with him and maybe slightly edged out by him. However look at the terrain. Sidious was in a cramped space, where his movements were constricted while Yoda could flip and spin and jump to wherever he please and Sidious still kept up for the majority.

He beat Maul and Savage because he is more skilled. I don't think I need to explain this one.

Lets look at that battle with Talzin. He makes a remark that she doesn't posses Dooku's skill meaning he has evaluated his skills for himself. That there shows he has practiced and most likely win due to being better than Dooku. The win part is a stretch though.

Against what? Vader has beaten characters who would be below Sidious. Vader never went toe to toe with someone like Yoda. Sidious on the other hand showed he was his equal and may in all fairness be better than Yoda since we don't know what it would be like if the battle were on neutral terrain.

Going toe to toe with Yoda, defeating three Jedi coucnil masters in 10 seconds, being the solid equal to a super amped Mace Windu, defeating someone who was able to go toe toe toe with Windu in Talzin while on her home terf, being a solid master of all seven forms, beating Luke in DE, being called a nine by Nick Guillard on his own SKILL, beating Darth Maul with a practice saber while maul had a real one, beating Maul and Savge oppress at once, being deemed to powerful for Obi wan to handle, and so on and so forth.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Based on what exactly? The fact that he's a complete Palpatine fanboy?

Based on the fact that I've very frequently discussed this kind of material with him, paired with the fact that you seem to have actually read very little of the original lore for yourself outside of the NJO era.

And ironically, as I recall, ILS despises Palpatine. So your attempt at a point there kinda falls completely flat.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Stop sucking Evans, Retis, and Jensaris dicks man.

You stop ignoring the fact that those guys are experts. Reti has actual fencing training, Jensaarai1 and Evan are quite knowledgeable even if they don't have formal training. They know what they're talking about.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
A) You understand all of the saber speed, sprint speed, everything is all skill right?

LOL!

The Flash is the fastest man alive (well except for Zoom, Reverse-Flash etc.) and can move so fast Superman appears to be in slow-motion. Are you seriously claiming that makes him a skilled swordsman?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Guess what Windu was still there parrying some of those attacks so it's not like Fisto had a one on one deul

That's a feeble excuse and you know it. The fact remains that those strikes were aimed at Kit, they were meant to kill, and he still parried them.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He beat Maul and Savage because he is more skilled. I don't think I need to explain this one.

LOL!

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Look at 2:12-2:17. You call gracelessly flailing around like that "skilled?" Or how about that move at 3:01. A true duellist would never use that move. Want to know why? Because it would never work. Palpatine only pulls it off because of Force-enhanced strength. A true duellist wouldn't depend entirely on strength/power like that.

By contrast look at Captain America (yes he's an unarmed fighter rather than a swordsman but it's the same principle). Sure he makes full use of his increased strength and speed in combat but he doesn't rely on them. When he fights he displays precision, economy of motion and technique. He doesn't flail around aimlessly or use sloppy moves that are entirely dependent on massive strength to be effective.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Lets look at that battle with Talzin. He makes a remark that she doesn't posses Dooku's skill meaning he has evaluated his skills for himself. That there shows he has practiced and most likely win due to being better than Dooku.

No evidence of that at all. Palpatine could easily have evaluated Dooku's skill from watching recordings.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
The win part is a stretch though.

Agreed.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Against what? Vader has beaten characters who would be below Sidious.

The difference being that Vader beat those guys through actual lightsabre skill (yeah the strength and durability granted by his cybernetics helped but he didn't rely entirely on them).

Again, you need to look at "how" they won.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
beating Luke in DE,

Now who's ignoring the circumstances?

Palpatine only beat Luke because his spirit was clouded by the dark side at that point. In the rematch Luke utterly trounced him (yes Leia aided him but she wasn't bolstering his power in any way. She just used Force Harmony to help keep his focus clear of dark influences).

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
being called a nine by Nick Guillard on his own SKILL,

So what?

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
being deemed to powerful for Obi wan to handle, and so on and so forth.

Exactly. Too POWERFUL, not too skilled. You need to learn that "power" and "skill" are not the same thing.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You stop ignoring the fact that those guys are experts. Reti has actual fencing training, Jensaarai1 and Evan are quite knowledgeable even if they don't have formal training. They know what they're talking about.

LOL!

The Flash is the fastest man alive (well except for Zoom, Reverse-Flash etc.) and can move so fast Superman appears to be in slow-motion. Are you seriously claiming that makes him a skilled swordsman?

That's a feeble excuse and you know it. The fact remains that those strikes were aimed at Kit, they were meant to kill, and he still parried them.

LOL!

Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Look at 2:12-2:17. You call gracelessly flailing around like that "skilled?" Or how about that move at 3:01. A true duellist would never use that move. Want to know why? Because it would never work. Palpatine only pulls it off because of Force-enhanced strength. A true duellist wouldn't depend entirely on strength/power like that.

By contrast look at Captain America (yes he's an unarmed fighter rather than a swordsman but it's the same principle). Sure he makes full use of his increased strength and speed in combat but he doesn't rely on them. When he fights he displays precision, economy of motion and technique. He doesn't flail around aimlessly or use sloppy moves that are entirely dependent on massive strength to be effective.

No evidence of that at all. Palpatine could easily have evaluated Dooku's skill from watching recordings.

Agreed.

The difference being that Vader beat those guys through actual lightsabre skill (yeah the strength and durability granted by his cybernetics helped but he didn't rely entirely on them).

Again, you need to look at "how" they won.

Now who's ignoring the circumstances?

Palpatine only beat Luke because his spirit was clouded by the dark side at that point. In the rematch Luke utterly trounced him (yes Leia aided him but she wasn't bolstering his power in any way. She just used Force Harmony to help keep his focus clear of dark influences).

So what?

Exactly. Too POWERFUL, not too skilled. You need to learn that "power" and "skill" are not the same thing.

First of all to their videos. What makes them experts compared to the rest of us, that they make videos? That's all that's different. Now to the fmecing thing, I respect Retis experience with fencing, but no matter how you have you can't compare a thin sword like that to a thick lightsaber first of all and to someone who has never received the challenge to where we see him fight all out without restraints since he was constricted in his battle with Yoda. My bad he did go all out agaisnt Mace. And guess what he met Mace skill wise.

Well not seeing how that's a fair comparison since Sidious actaully had specialist training with lightsabers not seeing how the two relate.

With the help of Windu. If it were Fisto vs Sidious then I would understand, but it wasn't he had Windu there helping him and eve that wasn't enough to take on the dark lord. So no not a feeble excuse, just the 100% truth and you know it.

Uhhh. Dude how retarded are you? Please explain. Sidious wasn't even going all out, he was purposely "sloppy". He knows Maul inside and out, and are you seriously trying to say that Savge is anywhere near Sidious skill level? Or Maul? Lol. Sidious beat them due to being more skilled. The video you posted is merely showing you don't have independent hrought and are just using their arguments which were wrong.

Now this is a feeble excuse. You honestly think he never once sparred with Dooku, I mean just once? Not true. He says in the comic, you may have his body but you don't have his skill implying that he has evaluated his skills himself in a sparring match. You can't get a feel of someone's skill just by watching, for all you know the person he faced could have just sucked, and going just based off of looking is rather vague and not specific enough to make that type of remark.

And Sidious didn't rely solely on speed either. He was better than Maul and savage, met Windu to stalemate, and while at a disadvantaged position still met Yoda head to head. As far as I know Vader hasn't done anything on that level.

Shrouded in the dark side? Isn't Sidious basically the dark side, and that was a new body? So that excuse really doesn't hold water. It's been a while since I've seen DE however.

Being a 9 was the highest level and only two people reached that naturally so yes that's a show of skill

To powerful and skilled in that instance same difference. If he didn't think he was powerful enough then he certainly didn't think he was skilled enough.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You stop ignoring the fact that those guys are experts. Reti has actual fencing training, Jensaarai1 and Evan are quite knowledgeable even if they don't have formal training. They know what they're talking about.

Actually, this is honestly part of the problem. Judging movie battles by applying practical, real world martial arts knowledge may be fun, but it doesn't really work. In the overwhelmingly vast majority of sword fights in fiction, alleged "master" duelists fight in very impractical and flamboyant ways. Why? Because in reality, they were choreographed to look cool, not to be realistic. But this doesn't change the fact that in the fictional lore, said characters are established as super skilled, and perform as if they were super skilled. Obviously anyone who knows anything about fencing knows that if someone in the real world tried fighting like *any* Jedi or midieval action hero from cinema, they'd get skewered by any competent opponent. But that doesn't make Yoda or Conan at all inept in their own lore. Suspension of Disbelief, amigo.

Oh jeez, DO NOT try to apply RL fighting to SW fighting....the SWU has superhumans capable of moving faster than the regular human eye can see and fight at ridiculoud speeds aided with them by The Force.

Trying to apply any standards of RL fighting is just....not going to work, trying to apply RL to anything in SW just doesn't pan out at all..

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Oh jeez, DO NOT try to apply RL fighting to SW fighting....the SWU has superhumans capable of moving faster than the regular human eye can see and fight at ridiculoud speeds aided with them by The Force.

Trying to apply any standards of RL fighting is just....not going to work, trying to apply RL to anything in SW just doesn't pan out at all..

Exactly I remember someone arguing against me once, that SW combatants don't have to worry about Kick, because Kicks in real fencing are only used to separate an opponent, and not to actually hurt them.

I was like, that don't mean squat, because in SW Kicks clearly Can Win Saber Fights. You have to argue with the Rules of Star Wars, and not real life.

Real life applications can be used to an extent, but not to completely override Star Wars rules and come out with silly theories like "Sidious is a sucky fencer because of the way he waves his sword around would lose him a fencing battle in real life."