So you think fighting multiple fodder is more impressive than fighting 1 skilled opponent? Would you then say beating 3 average guys on the street is more impressive than beating Mike Tyson in his prime?
Besides, Connor has fought multiple opponents as well. Just check his wartime flashbacks.
He's also defeated other immortals within the first few seconds of their duel. So it is not true that he steuggles always. Did you ever watch any Highlander movie? You don't even know his name
Originally posted by FrothByte
So you think fighting multiple fodder is more impressive than fighting 1 skilled opponent? Would you then say beating 3 average guys on the street is more impressive than beating Mike Tyson in his prime?Besides, Connor has fought multiple opponents as well. Just check his wartime flashbacks.
He's also defeated other immortals within the first few seconds of their duel. So it is not true that he steuggles always. Did you ever watch any Highlander movie? You don't even know his name
You see that's the problem with calling them fodder, it's plainly disingenuous and not the actual case. We know the Elves are elite in their fighting skill, and themselves very old and experienced. To say nothing of their heighted well beyond human agility and speed, eyesight etc etc. In fact, one could very well say beyond anything shown by the highlander in any move save the last one. Again though, there was context to that. Point is, they are elite, and yet they were dying by the hundreds by this "fodder". Now, if it was always in a tag team situation, and not one v one, we could cut them some slack... but that would further prove my point regardless. In numbers they are lethal and deadly. So the fact that Aragorn was killing them by the hundreds brings the point home that should be evident by now.
What's worse, many times they didn't need to kill them in a tag team, many were shown killed one v one as well. Further reinforcing the point, that they aren't "fodder" as you trying to paint them as. At worst, they are deadly in numbers, guess what, Aragorn was pwing them in numbers. That is beyond anything Connor ever showed. Which is the point, and why he feel he's superior fighting skill wise.
Granted, there is a healing factor to deal with and I agree that is why this becomes interesting. The decapitation is kind of a non point for me. I believe Aragorn would have that knowledge based on forum rules, and even if not, he's skilled and smart enough to figure it out. Being that I believe he's ahead skill wise, he'd land blows before being killed, and thus see the regen first hand. What do all of us think when we see that or Jason or Freddy.. like damn, let me chop off their head and see wtf happens then. So in either case I believe that is a non issue. Only made worse by Aragorn doing that in the movies.
Haven't seen them lol. Okay bud. It's funy cause NO. 2 or 3 is one of my favorites and most hate it. The one with M.V.P. in it.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You see that's the problem with calling them fodder, it's plainly disingenuous and not the actual case. We know the Elves are elite in their fighting skill, and themselves very old and experienced. To say nothing of their heighted well beyond human agility and speed, eyesight etc etc. In fact, one could very well say beyond anything shown by the highlander in any move save the last one. Again though, there was context to that. Point is, they are elite, and yet they were dying by the hundreds by this "fodder". Now, if it was always in a tag team situation, and not one v one, we could cut them some slack... but that would further prove my point regardless. In numbers they are lethal and deadly. So the fact that Aragorn was killing them by the hundreds brings the point home that should be evident by now.What's worse, many times they didn't need to kill them in a tag team, many were shown killed one v one as well. Further reinforcing the point, that they aren't "fodder" as you trying to paint them as. At worst, they are deadly in numbers, guess what, Aragorn was pwing them in numbers. That is beyond anything Connor ever showed. Which is the point, and why he feel he's superior fighting skill wise.
Granted, there is a healing factor to deal with and I agree that is why this becomes interesting. The decapitation is kind of a non point for me. I believe Aragorn would have that knowledge based on forum rules, and even if not, he's skilled and smart enough to figure it out. Being that I believe he's ahead skill wise, he'd land blows before being killed, and thus see the regen first hand. What do all of us think when we see that or Jason or Freddy.. like damn, let me chop off their head and see wtf happens then. So in either case I believe that is a non issue. Only made worse by Aragorn doing that in the movies.
Haven't seen them lol. Okay bud. It's funy cause NO. 2 or 3 is one of my favorites and most hate it. The one with M.V.P. in it.
The elven and human army combined in Two Towers were outnumbered 10 to 1 by the Urukhai. Of course they were dying by the hundreds. That doesn't mean the Urukhai are on the same level as the elves.
Fact is, you really have no way to prove the Urukhai's skill. Other than Lurtz, none showed that great skill. Boromir was killing them left and right. Legolas and Gimli were killing them left and right. In fact, when did the Urukhai look formidable?
I'm providing facts about MacLeod to back up my position:
1. He's older than Aragorn by a few centuries
2. He absorbs all the skill, knowledge and experience of any other immortal he faces
3. He's been in multiple battles and wars over the ages
4. He can't be killed other than by decapitation
5. He's very durable and has a healing factor
You on the other hand are giving a lot of guesswork just to excuse your position. Basically what you're saying is "Aragorn killed a lot of (featless) orcs and that proves he's a better swordsman than Connor".
Originally posted by FrothByteLOL. Boromir was one of the greatest warriors of his day. He was an INSANE fighter and killed more Uruks than the movie even showed. I believe he killed 39 of them before he fell. Boromir would have been a pretty good match for Aragorn. So, you cannot discount him.
Fact is, you really have no way to prove the Urukhai's skill. Other than Lurtz, none showed that great skill. Boromir was killing them left and right.
Legolas and Gimli were killing them left and right. In fact, when did the Urukhai look formidable?Again, Legolas and Gimli at the battle of Helm's Deep each killed over 40 Uruk-hai. They were, again, incredibly formidable fighters. To try and make the Uruks look bad for losing to these legendary fighters is hilariously silly.
1. He's older than Aragorn by a few centuries
2. He absorbs all the skill, knowledge and experience of any other immortal he faces
3. He's been in multiple battles and wars over the ages
4. He can't be killed other than by decapitation
5. He's very durable and has a healing factor
1. That is irrelevant
2. That's fine, he doesn't do much with it then, for the most part...sadly.
3. Again, irrelevant. Aragorn was pretty much slaughtering creatures/evil men his entire life too.
4. And Movie Aragorn decapitated Lurtz
5. Aragorn is incredibly durable as well. He also heals faster than normal men, AND has healing hands. They kind of showed this in the movies when he heals Eowyn and Faramir. Aragorn is basically a "Super soldier".
Interesting fight. I actually think Aragorn's lack of knowledge about the decap could prove to be his downfall (assuming that is the case and he has no knowledge of it). If Aragorn goes for a killing stroke that isn't a decap and it actually connects, but doesn't do the job, that moment of surprise should be all the opening someone with Connor's skill level needs to get a potentially crippling/fatal stroke of his own in. And unlike Connor, Aragorn doesn't need to lose his head to die.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerNah. Conner tried to backstab Duncan (to quote Stark, "DICK MOVE BANNER"😉, and he still lost that fight. Also his footwork and swordsmanship in that fight are the reasons he was decapitated. Lurtz would have killed Conner in that showing, let alone Aragorn.
Interesting fight. I actually think Aragorn's lack of knowledge about the decap could prove to be his downfall (assuming that is the case and he has no knowledge of it). If Aragorn goes for a killing stroke that isn't a decap and it actually connects, but doesn't do the job, that moment of surprise should be all the opening someone with Connor's skill level needs to get a potentially crippling/fatal stroke of his own in. And unlike Connor, Aragorn doesn't need to lose his head to die.
What happened between Connor and Duncan, another immortal, is not the situation I am suggesting. Striking a surprised opponent up close is a lot different to running at someone's back while yelling. But that all depends on how much knowledge Aragorn has. If he knows he has to hack off body parts from the start, it will be a different match. Either way, as I mentioned before, I think this is an interesting fight.
Originally posted by FrothByte
The elven and human army combined in Two Towers were outnumbered 10 to 1 by the Urukhai. Of course they were dying by the hundreds. That doesn't mean the Urukhai are on the same level as the elves.Fact is, you really have no way to prove the Urukhai's skill. Other than Lurtz, none showed that great skill. Boromir was killing them left and right. Legolas and Gimli were killing them left and right. In fact, when did the Urukhai look formidable?
I'm providing facts about MacLeod to back up my position:
1. He's older than Aragorn by a few centuries
2. He absorbs all the skill, knowledge and experience of any other immortal he faces
3. He's been in multiple battles and wars over the ages
4. He can't be killed other than by decapitation
5. He's very durable and has a healing factorYou on the other hand are giving a lot of guesswork just to excuse your position. Basically what you're saying is "Aragorn killed a lot of (featless) orcs and that proves he's a better swordsman than Connor".
There is no guesswork involved at all here, only unquestioned facts that you don't seem willing to accept. Here are the facts, and they are indisputable:
1. Elves have heightened reflexes, agility, strength & perception along with other variables. They are also very experienced and skilled in battle. In fact, one could argue, they showed more speed, agility, reflexes than another C.M. has ever shown
2. These same Elves were dying in larger numbers against these guys you're calling "fodder" . Some because they were being tag teamed, but other times, they simply got beaten one v. one.
Thus, the implication is no matter how you slice it, they are very deadly in numbers and some can kill Elves one v one. There are no two ways about it, and the only logical deduction that can be made from the movies. Yet, we are also left with these facts:
1. Aragorn took on some of these same guys while vastly outnumbered (just as the Elves were) and never, not once, did he even come close to dying really. Shit, he barely even had a mark on him for most of the confrontations. Even in one v one situations, he always came out on top.
So how are we left with anything other than, Aragorn has feats beyond anything C.M. has ever shown? He's never been shown fighting off groups such as these and coming out on top. To say nothing of the fact that even using the sword skills we see from him, he doesn't seem to be as skilled. He doesn't seem as fast, as strong nor as skilled. What you call guess work, I call these things listed above as very factual.
BTW, I totally forgot to address your analogy before. Being that I've shown them not to be "fodder" and actually deadly in numbers. The true analogy would be, would it be harder to fight 3 Donovan Ruddoch's or one Mike Tyson. That the more appropriate analogy, and the answer is simply, I'd be more impressed beating 3 Razor Ruddoch's
Watching Tyson one punch a group of 12 well trained boxers while they were all trying to beat him down at once, and getting away without even a split lip would impress me more than any of his 1v1 fights against champions.
Also despite their being large numbers of Uruk(as they were tank bred), they were known far and wide as the elite of Sauron's forces, and the most deadly ground troops he had access to. They were basically the evil version of elves as they were better fighters, stronger, etc... than all the other orcs and goblins and stuff like the elves were to normal humans.
Originally posted by KingD19
Watching Tyson one punch a group of 12 well trained boxers while they were all trying to beat him down at once, and getting away without even a split lip would impress me more than any of his 1v1 fights against champions.Also despite their being large numbers of Uruk(as they were tank bred), they were known far and wide as the elite of Sauron's forces, and the most deadly ground troops he had access to. They were basically the evil version of elves as they were better fighters, stronger, etc... than all the other orcs and goblins and stuff like the elves were to normal humans.
Precisely king
Originally posted by KingD19
Watching Tyson one punch a group of 12 well trained boxers while they were all trying to beat him down at once, and getting away without even a split lip would impress me more than any of his 1v1 fights against champions.Also despite their being large numbers of Uruk(as they were tank bred), they were known far and wide as the elite of Sauron's forces, and the most deadly ground troops he had access to. They were basically the evil version of elves as they were better fighters, stronger, etc... than all the other orcs and goblins and stuff like the elves were to normal humans.
Show me any footage of Uruks actually being trained to fight. As far as I recall, they were born from mud, given weapons and armor then sent to war.
They're big and strong but not once did I see them actually look skilled.
So Tyson fighting 12 well trained boxers is a false equivalency.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Show me any footage of Uruks actually being trained to fight. As far as I recall, they were born from mud, given weapons and armor then sent to war.They're big and strong but not once did I see them actually look skilled.
So Tyson fighting 12 well trained boxers is a false equivalency.
Now they are just untrained guys born from mud? Jesus.
Do we see Legolas train? No, we see him kick ass. Do we see Bane train? No, we see him kick ass. Do we see Thor train, No we see him kick ass. Do we see Ozy train, no we see him kick ass. Do we see Sauron train.. Balrog train...? I could go on and on across most movies. You get the point bud, seeing them training is not remotely required to prove skill. In fact, showing them kicking ass is exponentially more important to proving skill.
Have you not seen the movies? If you haven't, I understand why you're asking the question. If you have, I have no clue why you're asking it. They are shown killing Elves, Men, Dwarves by the hundreds. Guess what, that counts for vastly more than showing them banging swords together training. Please, that is proof of their skill. Their proof of their skill and formidability are the dead Elves, men and Dwarves on the ground.
By the way, why don't you refute the post I made above (which you still haven't addressed).. since it's seemingly to easy to do.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiSo how are we left with anything other than, Aragorn has feats beyond anything C.M. has ever shown? He's never been shown fighting off groups such as these and coming out on top. To say nothing of the fact that even using the sword skills we see from him, he doesn't seem to be as skilled. He doesn't seem as fast, as strong nor as skilled. What you call guess work, I call these things listed above as very factual.
Uhuh. And Aragorn has 1 feat where he went up against a decent opponent and barely survived. He has zero feats of fighting off a skilled opponent and easily winning, which Connor has lots.
Seeing as this is a 1 vs. 1 match, I have to question your insistence on disregarding Connor's experienced fighting skilled opponents and concentrating instead of Aragorn beating up fodder. Because at the end of the day, the Uruks only defeated the Elves through sheer numbers. Whereas we see the Elves actually displaying skill, the Urukhai are pretty much hack and slash tanks.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do we see Legolas train? No, we see him kick ass. Do we see Bane train? No, we see him kick ass. Do we see Thor train, No we see him kick ass. Do we see Ozy train, no we see him kick ass. Do we see Sauron train.. Balrog train...? I could go on and on across most movies. You get the point bud, seeing them training is not remotely required to prove skill. In fact, showing them kicking ass is exponentially more important to proving skill.Have you not seen the movies? If you haven't, I understand why you're asking the question. If you have, I have no clue why you're asking it. They are shown killing Elves, Men, Dwarves by the hundreds. Guess what, that counts for vastly more than showing them banging swords together training. Please, that is proof of their skill. Their proof of their skill and formidability are the dead Elves, men and Dwarves on the ground.
By the way, why don't you refute the post I made above (which you still haven't addressed).. since it's seemingly to easy to do.
Legolas and Thor at least have some massive skill feats. Plus, they weren't just a few days old. The urukhai were only a few days to a few weeks old before they were sent to war.
What post above are you talking about? That they needed more than 10,000 orcs to kill a combined army of a thousand Elves and Humans? With a lot of those humans untrained boys? With the elves numbering only a couple hundred? There was only 1 dwarf in that fight that I recall. Anyway, that's not a show of skill, that's a show of overwhelming numbers.
Froth, you're better than this. I conclusively proven you don't need to see training to show skill. That has been conclusively established. So your premise has already been thrown out the window. That is all I was required to do, and listed countless examples to back up it being completely thrown out.
The hundreds of Dwarves that died were to an inferior group than the one faced at the two towers. This is clearly pointed out in describing them, and King even quoted the lines. That inferior group of Orcs killed Hundreds of Dwarves, Elves and Men in BO5A. Thus, Sauron's army in LOTR trilogy, was even more formidable and deadly. Guess what, Aragorn was slicing through them like a knife through butter. Doing something and beating a group C.M. was never shown beating.
You know the post I'm referring to... the post you have responded to which laid out the facts you are seemingly dismissing. You keep referencing that they needed numbers to kill all those people.. that proves my point.... They are deadly in numbers.. Guess what, Aragorn killed them left and right with barely a scratch on him.
You can't further get around that elves were shown to be above anything C.M. has ever shown speed, agility, reflex wise.. as well as being super skilled and experienced in battle. If their movement feats are above anything C.M. has shown.. yet they were still being killed left and right... yet Aragorn wasn't.. How you can't grasp that this might mean Aragorn is more skilled is beyond me.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Froth, you're better than this. I conclusively proven you don't need to see training to show skill. That has been conclusively established. So your premise has already been thrown out the window. That is all I was required to do, and listed countless examples to back up it being completely thrown out.
Training is not needed to showcase skill IF there has actually been skill shown. Unfortunately, none of the Urukhai other than Lurtz has shown any actual skill. Which is why I questioned their training. If you can provide them showcasing actual skill then that's something different. And no, 10,000 orcs killing a few hundred Elves does not showcase skill. It simply shows that they are far inferior to Elves.
The hundreds of Dwarves that died were to an inferior group than the one faced at the two towers. This is clearly pointed out in describing them, and King even quoted the lines. That inferior group of Orcs killed Hundreds of Dwarves, Elves and Men in BO5A. Thus, Sauron's army in LOTR trilogy, was even more formidable and deadly. Guess what, Aragorn was slicing through them like a knife through butter. Doing something and beating a group C.M. was never shown beating.
Yes, and those orcs were getting knocked out by rocks thrown by old women. Meaning if those orcs were that easily defeated, then the dwarves/elves/men they defeated were pretty crappy as well.
[/b]You know the post I'm referring to... the post you have responded to which laid out the facts you are seemingly dismissing. You keep referencing that they needed numbers to kill all those people.. that proves my point.... They are deadly in numbers.. Guess what, Aragorn killed them left and right with barely a scratch on him.[/b]
Err... 10,000 Orcs being able to kill a few hundred men and a few hundred elves is proof of their skill despite them actually losing that fight? Yeah... you need to work on your reasoning skills.
Yes, I'm not saying Aragorn is not a skilled fighter. Problem is all he ever did is kill fodder. Fodder that, even outnumbering the enemy 10 to 1 still lost the battle. What I'm questioning here is that Aragorn has never, not once, have any decent feat where he went up against a skilled opponent and easily won. He went up against 1, who was Lurtz, and almost lost. Now I have to wonder why you keep dodging that fact. Heck, I don't even know if Lurtz was actually skilled or just strong.
You can't further get around that elves were shown to be above anything C.M. has ever shown speed, agility, reflex wise.. as well as being super skilled and experienced in battle. If their movement feats are above anything C.M. has shown.. yet they were still being killed left and right... yet Aragorn wasn't.. How you can't grasp that this might mean Aragorn is more skilled is beyond me.
Yes, but Aragorn did not defeat Elves did he? He defeated Urukhai whom the Elves would have slaughtered if not for the fact that they were severely outnumbered.
What I can't grasp is why you keep ignoring Macleod's huge advantages (healing regen, massive experience advantage, ability to absorb other immortal skill and experience) and keep focusing on Aragorn beating fodder.