Originally posted by Beniboybling
The hype he received indicates to me he's been trained to a higher level of skill.Granted it hasn't been demonstrated, by Savage hasn't demonstrated much skill either.
Fighting off Council Members is better then losing to an untrained force user and being challenged by a non force sensitive even after being injured.
I haven't perused TFA's novel, but Kylo's skill—such as it is—comes from his devastation of Luke's new Jedi order, the circumstances of which are unknown, as is the caliber of his Jedi opponents. Syndicate is right: Savage might not be the poster boy for technical prowess, but he is skilled enough to go toe-to-toe with Jedi Council members who, per The Clone Wars Character Guide, represent the best fighters of the Jedi Order. Between his skill, raw power, strength, and damage soak, an argument can definitely be made for him winning.
Originally posted by SyndicateRight, except you have no idea how Savage would have fared under those circumstances. Nor do you have any proof of Ren can't hold off Plo Koon & defeat Adi Gallia at full strength.
Fighting off Council Members is better then losing to an untrained force user and being challenged by a non force sensitive even after being injured.
@Tempest granted, but it seems pretty unlikely that of all Luke's students were poor duelists, I'd assume at this point average to above-average talent, where Savage's dueling skills are serviceable at best. My gut feeling is that Kylo is the better duelist, though admittedly we lack sufficient information to say anything concrete.
Savage's main advantage would be his strength and endurance, but those seem his only distinct advantages.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Tempest granted, but it seems pretty unlikely that of all Luke's students were poor duelists,
It seems even less likely that they were swordsmen on par with the best of the old Jedi order.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd assume at this point average to above-average talent, where Savage's dueling skills are serviceable at best.
The Clone Wars Episode Guide says that Savage's abilities increased since his time as Dooku's "apprentice," and visually, we see Savage acquit himself quite well against Jedi Council members in terms of technique. It's not like he just incoherently thrashed against Anakin, Obi-Wan, Adi Gallia, etc like Luke did against Vader in the last moments of their duel, overpowering them through sheer brute force. He kept up in pretty much every respect.
I think you're shortchanging Savage's skills in the grand scheme of things pretty badly.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
My gut feeling is that Kylo is the better duelist, though admittedly we lack sufficient information to say anything concrete.
Savage's main advantage would be his strength and endurance, but those seem his only distinct advantages. [/B][/QUOTE]
Savage has the feats and accolades to compete with Kylo.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Post the clip.
I was mostly joking about Kylo being a pussy, but on second thought he does actually shrug off a lot more damage here.
Begins around 1:15
Originally posted by The_TempestCertainly not, but Savage went toe-to-toe with then largely out of strength and power, not skill. Kylo's supremacy over the Luke's Jedi Order is explicitly attributed to his "deadly skill" with a lightsaber.
It seems even less likely that they were swordsmen on par with the best of the old Jedi order.
The Clone Wars Episode Guide says that Savage's abilities increased since his time as Dooku's "apprentice," and visually, we see Savage acquit himself quite well against Jedi Council members in terms of technique. It's not like he just incoherently thrashed against Anakin, Obi-Wan, Adi Gallia, etc like Luke did against Vader in the last moments of their duel, overpowering them through sheer brute force. He kept up in pretty much every respect.Certainly there is an element of skill involved, but I think his performance is largely attributable to brute force. Shadow Conspiracy states in terms of Adi that "all her skill" was "no match for his enormous strength" and Anakin & Kenobi, both brilliant duelists in their own right, are depicted to be clearly incapable of handling Savage's rage-amped strength.
I think you're shortchanging Savage's skills in the grand scheme of things pretty badly.I'm not saying Savage can't compete with Kylo as far as dueling skill is concerned, simply that Kylo is likely better.
Savage has the feats and accolades to compete with Kylo.But not win. 😉
Originally posted by Lord StarkThose blasts are still less powerful than the crossbow caster. Did Savage even bleed there ?
I was mostly joking about Kylo being a pussy, but on second thought he does actually shrug off a lot more damage here.Begins around 1:15
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Certainly not, but Savage went toe-to-toe with then largely out of strength and power, not skill.
Again, he visually demonstrates sufficient skill to keep up with them.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kylo's supremacy over the Luke's Jedi Order is explicitly attributed to his "deadly skill" with a lightsaber.
Again, we have absolutely no idea how skilled or powerful these Jedi were, which makes it much less resonant.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Certainly there is an element of skill involved, but I think his performance is largely attributable to brute force. Shadow Conspiracy states in terms of Adi that "all her skill" was "no match for his enormous strength"
Which only implies that his "enormous strength" was his singular decisive advantage over her... which would still be the case if their skill levels were absolutely even, which no one is even implying.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
and Anakin & Kenobi, both brilliant duelists in their own right, are depicted to be clearly incapable of handling Savage's rage-amped strength.
But again, Savage isn't simply spastically thrashing at them incoherently and driving them back. He's visually displaying the same sort of prowess and technique that other masterful Jedi and Sith display against them. To me, beating someone down simply due to sheer strength would be like Anakin's duel with Dooku in TCW on Naboo, where he kicks Dooku to the ground and starts hammering at him with his blade.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm not saying Savage can't compete with Kylo as far as dueling skill is concerned, simply that Kylo is likely better.
That's a pretty generous contention and one that's not necessarily wrong, but hardly one that is heavily supported.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But not win. 😉
Well, isn't that what compete implies? A viable chance of victory? As I've discussed with Darth Thor before, I don't know how you can truly compete against someone by dint of accolade and feat and not have a chance to take them down.
I don't believe for a second that Savage can't beat Kylo. Whether or not he would take a majority of encounters is up for debate, but he definitely has a shot imo.
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Did he?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=kylo+ren&client=safari&channel=mac_bm&biw=1264&bih=738&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&%20ved=0ahUKEwjWyOPviPPJAhXDRhQKHX2xBTYQ_AUIBigB#%20ved=0ahUKEwjWyOPviPPJAhXDRhQKHX2xBTYQ_AUIBigB&imgr<br%20/>c=-kczQyep6OEHTM%3A&imgrc=MFQkZIsy-2xlbM%3A
^ Isn't the big belt he's wearing metal? And around the part he got hit?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I was mostly joking about Kylo being a pussy, but on second thought he does actually shrug off a lot more damage here.Begins around 1:15
Yeah I'd defo go with Savage for durability. He took a lot of shots there, and still managed to Force Wave all the those droids and 2 Jedi to the floor.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Those blasts are still less powerful than the crossbow caster. Did Savage even bleed there ?
No one bled from blaster wounds in Star Wars until this movie.
Here Savage takes a blow at :18, even grunts in pain but just keeps on going and wrecks a Jedi Master.
Holy shit, Beni. Give me some of what you're on so I can understand what went through your mind in this thread, before I overdose to cleanse myself of this madness.
Savage wins, he's the better fighter. There's nothing to suggest Kylo even has a technical advantage (mastering the Sabersraff and taking on the best CW duelists going after just weeks of Force training, anyone?) , which is funnily enough the least important aspect of dueling in Star Wars anyway. Force-aided lightsaber ability is almost always the dictator, and Savage quite evidently has barrels of it.
Originally posted by Lord StarkSo ? Ren clearly bled and was affected. Opress wasn't significantly effected at all.
No one bled from blaster wounds in Star Wars until this movie.Here Savage takes a blow at :18, even grunts in pain but just keeps on going and wrecks a Jedi Master.