Originally posted by quanchi112
Vos humiliated Dooku as did Anakin. You may want to dismiss canon but I won't.
That's a feat for Vos, not a power deflation for Dooku. As far as I know novelizations are canon. And in the ROTS novelization Mace thinks Anakin's defeat of Dooku is enough to rank him as arguably the most powerful Jedi in the Order.
Dooku has never trashed a prime Obi-Wan and he's been floored/beaten by Anakin three times. I suppose if you pretend Dooku is some demigod who thrashed the dream team for fun then yeah, Maul doesn't compare. But to use this chain of logic; Savage was taking on Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time just after forcing Dooku and Ventress to run away from him, yet Maul had him disarmed of his lightsaber in about two maneuvers. What has Dooku done that compares?
Originally posted by ILS
Dooku has never trashed a prime Obi-Wan and he's been floored/beaten by Anakin three times. I suppose if you pretend Dooku is some demigod who thrashed the dream team for fun then yeah, Maul doesn't compare. But to use this chain of logic; Savage was taking on Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time just after forcing Dooku and Ventress to run away from him, yet Maul had him disarmed of his lightsaber in about two maneuvers. What has Dooku done that compares?
Dooku has never trashed prime Kenobi? Are you serious?
He's trashed a Kenobi that's superior to the one that wrecked Maul and Savage combined on Oba-Dia. He then trashed Kenobi again on the Invisible Hand. He was beaten by Anakin once. Dooku was never beaten by Skywalker until the Invisible hand. In every duel he was "floored" Anakin was in a similar state before. Floored in no way equals beaten.
Maul on the other hand has never TK'ed prime Kenobi.
I was talking about dueling, unless you're seriously suggesting Dooku can ragdoll Maul? 😂
Maul left Kenobi wheezing with a Force choke for minutes without even intending to kill him. That was late-CW Kenobi. The difference between him and the one on the Invisible Hand is inconsequential.
Dooku was put on his ass by Anakin twice during TCW, once bailed out by Anakin needing to save Ahsoka and secondly with his command of the Force. Him and Anakin aren't equals with a blade.
So yeah, nah, Dooku can't trash Obi-Wan with the Force any better than Maul can and is someone Anakin is most certainly better than. I know you enjoy going out of your way to shit on Maul but at least make a coherent argument while doing so.
Also, not to mention, as per Shadow Conspiracy Maul's power grew throughout the Clone Wars just like everyone elses up to the point of The Lawless and then likely further into SoD. With every terrible experience Maul goes through he grows in power; Talzin and Savage's death would be consistent with this. Post-SoD Maul would have matched any power increase Kenobi had, or surpassed it.
Originally posted by ILS
I was talking about dueling, unless you're seriously suggesting Dooku can ragdoll Maul? 😂
He trashed him on Oba-Dia
Maul left Kenobi wheezing with a Force choke for minutes without even intending to kill him. That was late-CW Kenobi. The difference between him and the one on the Invisible Hand is inconsequential.
There's no difference between him and the one on the Invisible Hand? How do you figure? Between Season 5 TCWs and Season 6 TCWs Anakin "became a hero and grew vastly in power." If Anakin grew vastly in power, why would Kenobi remain static.
Dooku was put on his ass by Anakin twice during TCW, once bailed out by Anakin needing to save Ahsoka and secondly with his command of the Force. Him and Anakin aren't equals with a blade.
Yes and a minute before that Dooku had him floored and disarmed. Not to mention Dooku outright tags his back at 1:23. Dooku floors Skywalker twice, and yet Anakin floors Dooku once and Anakin 'wins'.
And as for the second duel, Dooku literally fights with a hand behind his back the entire fight. He played with him the whole fight. + Dooku trashes a more powerful Anakin and Kenobi on Oba-Dia.
So yeah, nah, Dooku can't trash Obi-Wan with the Force any better than Maul can and is someone Anakin is most certainly better than. I know you enjoy going out of your way to shit on Maul but at least make a coherent argument while doing so.
Dooku can trash Kenobi in the Force and sabers. + Maul has never choked out Obi-Wan in a 1v1 situation where he wasn't injured. Let alone in a 2 v. 1
Stark-
He trashed him on Oba-DiaHe kicked Kenobi once and there happened to be a cliff behind him. If there was a cliff behind Anakin in RotS would you deem him to have been "trashed" as well? 😂
There's no difference between him and the one on the Invisible Hand? How do you figure? Between Season 5 TCWs and Season 6 TCWs Anakin "became a hero and grew vastly in power." If Anakin grew vastly in power, why would Kenobi remain static.Well for one, equating the Chosen One's power growth to Obi-Wan's is fugging lolworthy. Secondly, if Kenobi grew from that point, as I pointed out, historical evidence backs that Maul would have as well, if anything at a greater rate. Every bad or profound experience ranging from boxing a Wampa to death, his Sith Lord trials, crafting his saberstaff, training Savage or being left on Lotho Minor has only left Maul stronger as a Force wielder, as described in all of the related sources to these events, which I can quote if need be. (For the record, are there any quotes for Kenobi increasing in power in a meaningful way heading into RotS, or is it just assumptions from that camp?).
Watching Savage, one of probably just two people Maul has ever genuinely cared for out of some kind of compassion, being butchered by Sidious before being given the "you're replaced" monologue, and then being left to stew in a prison cell afterwards is going to increase Maul's power. Watching Talzin being gutted by Grievous is going to piss Maul off even more. So yeah, I'm thinking Maul by the end of SoD is going to have no issue ragging Kenobi after that power increase.
Yes and a minute before that Dooku had him floored and disarmed. Not to mention Dooku outright tags his back at 1:23. Dooku floors Skywalker twice, and yet Anakin floors Dooku once and Anakin 'wins'.Again, I don't care if Dooku can floor TCW Anakin with the Force, especially if Anakin can pick up his lightsaber and keep fighting afterwards. Dooku can't take Maul out with the Force in the same manner. He's too powerful, especially by the end of SoD.
But if Anakin can consistently put Dooku on his ass in lightsaber combat? I'm inclined to think Dooku isn't quite his equal with a lightsaber. He's not someone who can just thrash Kenobi outside of with telekinesis, and he's not someone who can stalemate the two of them at the same time. The RotS novel makes that perfectly clear when it talks about how far Kenobi's Soresu has come along, to the point Dooku wouldn't dare an attack against it and would rather remove Kenobi as soon as possible through other means. Kenobi is constantly shat on when it comes to Dooku, and it's ridiculous.
Also, he slashed Anakin's backpack, not his body. Would have been thin air without the backpack.
And as for the second duel, Dooku literally fights with a hand behind his back the entire fight. He played with him the whole fight. + Dooku trashes a more powerful Anakin and Kenobi on Oba-Dia.LOL and? Fighting with one hand when using Makashi isn't uncommon at all. Shit, Plo Koon duels with one hand and he's a Djem So practitioner; are you going to tell me based on that evidence he tried to "play with" both Savage and Ventress in his duels with them?
He didn't trash them. He took advantage of Kenobi having to try and not fall off a cliff. When Kenobi returned they went back to pressuring Dooku, putting him on the backfoot, getting an uncomfortable grunt out of him just before the fight was interrupted. It wasn't going to go his way.
Dooku can trash Kenobi in the Force and sabers. + Maul has never choked out Obi-Wan in a 1v1 situation where he wasn't injured. Let alone in a 2 v. 1Nice fan-fic, and yes, he has. Kenobi wasn't injured here; he was fresh, and Maul took casual control of him.
He wasn't even trying to kill Obi-Wan there, he never was until the Mandalore arc with Satine. The idea that a prime, post-SoD Maul couldn't is hilarious.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66You've been stroking post-Outer Rim sieges!Kenobi's nut-beard for months now, so let's hear it; convince me that that iteration of Obi-Wan is so far above his earlier self in relation to Force power. Convince me he leaped so highly in Force power that he not only left the zone of being Maul's telekinetic plaything, but surpassed Maul's own power growth rate to break out of that zone. If you can do that you'll have my concession and respect.
My above comment to Stark also applies to this.
If you give me a whiny post about how his reputation totes soared and he an hero'd and how come the chosen one gets to become uber but not Obi-Wan, then... no.
It's funny every time I mention Maul not being Dooku's equal people bring up Dooku not beating Kenobi "IN PURE SABERS".
Also Dooku has also stomped/embarrassed Savage 1 on 1 in seconds. And Savage has never defeated Obi-Wan.
Whilst Dooku has a good record against Powerful duos. Not only Kenobi+Anakin, but he was besting Opress+Ventress, and he also defeated Ventress + 2 night sisters together.
So again, what has Maul done that puts him on par with Dooku? And Take ALL abilities that apply in Saber/Force combat into account Lol
Originally posted by ILS
You've been stroking post-Outer Rim sieges!Kenobi's nut-beard for months now, so let's hear it; convince me that that iteration of Obi-Wan is so far above his earlier self in relation to Force power. Convince me he leaped so highly in Force power that he not only left the zone of being Maul's telekinetic plaything, but surpassed Maul's own power growth rate to break out of that zone. If you can do that you'll have my concession and respect.If you give me a whiny post about how his reputation totes soared and he an hero'd and how come the chosen one gets to become uber but not Obi-Wan, then... no.
I'll regurgitate what I always say though, since it's not like I (or anyone else) got some new divine-inspired obscure quotes.
It's just obvious.
If you go from a duo that gets completely tooled by Dooku in S6 to completely humiliating him in ROTSN, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from a duo that was hardly even a duo in TCW besides chances of luck to the end-all, be-all duo known throughout the entire galaxy, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from a little funeral where not even political figures show up to being a common household name and on the playground for your combat achievements, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from being a push over throughout the early stages of TCW to being the leading and complete master of Soresu, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from being dominated by Dooku in every engagement to moving so fast Dooku is like "oh shit, I might lose," massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from being ragdolled by Darth Maul to matching and reflecting telekinetic attacks by an enraged Anakin Skywalker in a work with no mention of hinderment, massive improvement is obvious.
Basically, when we see how complete shit Kenobi is in TCW, then look at the absolute god he is in ROTSN, the only logical conclusion is improvement - a notion supported by the novel.
That's my reasoning (which you already heard before). I assume that's Stark's as well.
Originally posted by Darth ThorI bring it up because ragdolling Kenobi is something Maul can and has done. The only argument left is lightsaber combat. At that point, Kenobi ceases to be evidence in favour of Dooku any more than Savage is.
It's funny every time I mention Maul not being Dooku's equal people bring up Dooku not beating Kenobi "IN PURE SABERS".Also Dooku has also stomped/embarrassed Savage 1 on 1 in seconds. And Savage has never defeated Obi-Wan.
Whilst Dooku has a good record against Powerful duos. Not only Kenobi+Anakin, but he was besting Opress+Ventress, and he also defeated Ventress + 2 night sisters together.
So again, what has Maul done that puts him on par with Dooku? And Take ALL abilities that apply in Saber/Force combat into account Lol
Lel, that was Savage at the beginning of his training, as in when he first received a lightsaber. Savage threw Dooku into a wall hard enough to disarm him weeks later, and then shoved the dream team down a corridor. Then he defeated Plo Koon and a squad of clone troopers simultaneously. And then Maul stomped him. So again, not seeing the gaping disparity.
He's done well at prolonging his fights with Anakin and Kenobi, but I don't see that being out of Maul's realm of abilities. He's pretty much proven his superiority over the likes of Savage and Ventress who can do it as well. Tearing into Kenobi's throat with telekinesis in order to kill him or incapacitate him, as Maul has done before, and then losing to Anakin is something Dooku isn't exclusive in being able to do. His one edge over Maul in regards to fighting duos is that he can keep those who are inexperienced against lightning at bay, but that will simply vary from opponent to opponent, e.g it has never mattered against Obi-Wan as early as AotC.
For Force power; being implicitly capable of collapsing a barracks at the age of 15, i.e before about seven major, documented power growths including becoming a Sith Lord, being capable of sustaining his body through bisection to the point he can drag himself through Lotho Minor, take out several inhabitant and then use Mechu-Deru to construct functioning limbs within seconds, pulling down shuttles (after being dismembered and while being forced to run with an injured Savage on his shoulder) and collapsing large tunnels (after being stabbed in the abdomen by a lightsaber), ragdolling Obi-Wan Kenobi easily, contributing at least half of the energy required to blow away an army of one hundred away like wet paper, all of which was done before he reached his prime at the end of SoD, should just about do it.
For dueling; training so endlessly that the tens of thousands of maneuvers Maul practices hundreds of times a day, for years, became embedded into his muscle memory beyond perfection, comfortably outfighting Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan simultaneously (Jinn being one of the most skilled Jedi swordsmen in the history of the entire Order, Obi-Wan being good enough at that point to contend with Jinn in sparring), defeating Savage Opress in seconds, defeating Obi-Wan with a psychological advantage (or otherwise stalemating him), contending with Mace Windu long enough to kick Aayla off of her feet and her to regain her footing (or alternatively, long enough for Dooku to have a fairly long contest with Kenobi and Tiplee), and going down in every sourcebook known to man as one of the most skilled, dangerous and highly trained Sith warriors the Sith have produced in their 5,000 year history, should again, just about do it.
The only arguments I ever see in favour of Dooku over Maul are name dropping him next to the dream team, or bringing up people like Kenobi who he's far more optimized to deal with in terms of dueling style (Makashi's economy and reservation of energy isn't going to tire out or slip up, which Soresu requires most of the time for a victory; Maul smashing Kenobi's Soresu with a dedicated Juyo assault isn't going to be more effective). The same argument can be reversed by simply bringing up how Dooku struggles with someone like Savage if he has to feel the full brunt of his blows while Maul can bat them aside without issue and disarm his brother; because Dooku isn't very strong and Maul is exceptionally strong.
Styles make fights. Maul and Dooku are good at different things. Maul boasts a big physical advantage while Dooku has lightning. Against different opponents they'll perform differently, against each other it will probably go either way.
Now, Ant next.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66I think you sign up for a debate when you butt into a debate to say someone needs to be on drugs to have made a certain point. Isn't that how it works? Back up your points?
You're making demands you're not readY to fulfill on your end of the bargain, broski. Nor did I sign up for this shit.I'll regurgitate what I always say though, since it's not like I (or anyone else) got some new divine-inspired obscure quotes.
It's just obvious.
If you go from a duo that gets completely tooled by Dooku in S6 to completely humiliating him in ROTSN, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from a duo that was hardly even a duo in TCW besides chances of luck to the end-all, be-all duo known throughout the entire galaxy, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from a little funeral where not even political figures show up to being a common household name and on the playground for your combat achievements, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from being a push over throughout the early stages of TCW to being the leading and complete master of Soresu, massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from being dominated by Dooku in every engagement to moving so fast Dooku is like "oh shit, I might lose," massive improvement is obvious.
If you go from being ragdolled by Darth Maul to matching and reflecting telekinetic attacks by an enraged Anakin Skywalker in a work with no mention of hinderment, massive improvement is obvious.
Basically, when we see how complete shit Kenobi is in TCW, then look at the absolute god he is in ROTSN, the only logical conclusion is improvement - a notion supported by the novel.
That's my reasoning (which you already heard before). I assume that's Stark's as well.
Dooku didn't completely tool them in S6, so there's your first point gone. He kicked Kenobi just like he kicked Anakin in RotS, the pivotal difference being in one scenario there was a cliff. He was back to being put on the backfoot just before the fight ended. Next.
Reputation and fame =/= actual, tangible improvement. Next.
Kenobi was a documented pushover in TCW? I can't wait to hear the explanation behind this.
Kenobi wasn't being dominated by Dooku in terms of anything bar telekinesis during TCW. He got kicked by him LOL.
Mustafar Vader's connection to the Force was so stunted he couldn't even sense Kenobi's presence just before the fight, in spite of their master-apprentice connection, and was also hindered by the simple fact he was conflicted over not wanting to kill his best friend/brother/borderline lover. But, sure, pretend Kenobi went from being ragdolled by Maul to being equal for a fresh, no-morals Anakin because reasons in such a short period of time.
These arguments are honestly pretty horseshit. Maul rags RotS Kenobi.
Originally posted by ILS
Stark-
He kicked Kenobi once and there happened to be a cliff behind him. If there was a cliff behind Anakin in RotS would you deem him to have been "trashed" as well? 😂
Full retard mode here.
YouTube video
1:00- Dooku kicks Kenobi and nearly kills him
1:18- Dooku tosses Kenobi and breaks his ribs
1:20- Dooku corners Skywalker with a kick and nearly cuts him down.
1:27- Dooku sends Anakin sprawling with a roundhouse kick.
The whole time Dooku was pressuring them into retreat, the whole time he was on the offensive and they were back peddling.
Well for one, equating the Chosen One's power growth to Obi-Wan's is fugging lolworthy. Secondly, if Kenobi grew from that point, as I pointed out, historical evidence backs that Maul would have as well, if anything at a greater rate. Every bad or profound experience ranging from boxing a Wampa to death, his Sith Lord trials, crafting his saberstaff, training Savage or being left on Lotho Minor has only left Maul stronger as a Force wielder, as described in all of the related sources to these events, which I can quote if need be. (For the record, are there any quotes for Kenobi increasing in power in a meaningful way heading into RotS, or is it just assumptions from that camp?).
I'm not claiming his growth is equal, only that he obviously grew.
"Both powerful and evenly matched, the two former friends dueled to a stalemate until Anakin attempted to leap over his old Master, which Obi-Wan warned him not to try."
Even emotionally conflicted Anakin would be extremely powerful and the fact that Kenobi can evenly match him is a testament to his growth throughout the Clone Wars.
Watching Savage, one of probably just two people Maul has ever genuinely cared for out of some kind of compassion, being butchered by Sidious before being given the "you're replaced" monologue, and then being left to stew in a prison cell afterwards is going to increase Maul's power. Watching Talzin being gutted by Grievous is going to piss Maul off even more. So yeah, I'm thinking Maul by the end of SoD is going to have no issue ragging Kenobi after that power increase.
Prove he increased in power.
Again, I don't care if Dooku can floor TCW Anakin with the Force, especially if Anakin can pick up his lightsaber and keep fighting afterwards. Dooku can't take Maul out with the Force in the same manner. He's too powerful, especially by the end of SoD.
Maul is not more powerful than Anakin. You literally have no proof he increased in power after SoD just a bunch of supposition.
But if Anakin can consistently put Dooku on his ass in lightsaber combat? I'm inclined to think Dooku isn't quite his equal with a lightsaber. He's not someone who can just thrash Kenobi outside of with telekinesis, and he's not someone who can stalemate the two of them at the same time. The RotS novel makes that perfectly clear when it talks about how far Kenobi's Soresu has come along, to the point Dooku wouldn't dare an attack against it and would rather remove Kenobi as soon as possible through other means. Kenobi is constantly shat on when it comes to Dooku, and it's ridiculous.
As I stated earlier in their final duel before the Invisible Hand Dooku puts Anakin on his ass, breaks Kenobi's ribs, and the ROTS novel contradicts the film version and is thus n-canon.
Also, he slashed Anakin's backpack, not his body. Would have been thin air without the backpack.
It put Anakin on his ass is the point. Dooku was on his ass once that entire fight, Anakin twice and yet you portray it as though Anakin won. Lol at the double standards.
LOL and? Fighting with one hand when using Makashi isn't uncommon at all. Shit, Plo Koon duels with one hand and he's a Djem So practitioner; are you going to tell me based on that evidence he tried to "play with" both Savage and Ventress in his duels with them?
You're reference to n-canon material is cool and all but ultimately irrelevant to the discussion. If you watch any of Dooku's other duels where he's serious he fights with both hands. He does against Ventress and Savage, he does against Yoda, he does against the Nightsisters. You don't find it odd that in the one duel against Anakin he fights with one arm?
He didn't trash them. He took advantage of Kenobi having to try and not fall off a cliff. When Kenobi returned they went back to pressuring Dooku, putting him on the backfoot, getting an uncomfortable grunt out of him just before the fight was interrupted. It wasn't going to go his way.
Lol see above.
Nice fan-fic, and yes, he has. Kenobi wasn't injured here; he was fresh, and Maul took casual control of him.
http://i.imgur.com/zCATJ9O.png
http://i.imgur.com/2Tzi4YZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/OmEkVCo.png
N-canon.
He wasn't even trying to kill Obi-Wan there, he never was until the Mandalore arc with Satine. The idea that a prime, post-SoD Maul couldn't is hilarious.
As I said that comic is not canon. Prove he got more powerful post-SoD.
