Ya know, the weird thing is, when I see the behind the scenes footage of McGregor training for the TPM fight it looks pretty cool. Yet, when I see it in TPM it's pretty clean and sterile.
Maybe it's the shabby sports wear, the shabby beard and hair and the sweat that made it look like a real effort. I dunno.
Originally posted by queeq
Ya know, the weird thing is, when I see the behind the scenes footage of McGregor training for the TPM fight it looks pretty cool. Yet, when I see it in TPM it's pretty clean and sterile.Maybe it's the shabby sports wear, the shabby beard and hair and the sweat that made it look like a real effort. I dunno.
McGregor was always super aggressive in training. He and Hayden broke/bent many of the practice lightsabers. They had them tone it back for the movie.
Originally posted by UshgarakThe PT duels have three chief problems:
Hmm, well I don't see the fights as looking any more timed or careful than, say, the TFA fight. They're just in what I see as a better style.And if you didn't care about the characters in the first place, fair enough- but that begs the question, if you DID care about the characters, would you like the PT style?
Luke wailing on Vader is an awesome moment- again, backed well by the music; that moment and the minutes afterwards are the high point of ROTJ and I am not for one moment denying that decent character involvement makes fights better. But I'm honestly not that big on the sabre fight leading up to it (ESB was better). In comparison, I think the exchange of blows between Obi-Wan and Maul after the staredown is the best few moments of sabre duelling in the entire franchise. It's a fantastically designed series of blows (using both blade and body), I am well into Obi-Wan's anger, and Maul's cocky taunting is bang on as well.
That polished perfection for me is straight- perfection in the sense of being very good indeed.
1.) The lack of emotional investment in the characters;
2.) The style itself, with the speed, pre-practised perfect routines, and the twirly-whirly; and
3.) The polished, super-clean, sterile looking, effortless movements (and environments).
Add number 1, and the others remain. The style I've already b*tched about, but the very look and feel of the fights is fake feeling. Aside from the Anakin-Kenobi duel, there's not alot of sweat, or panting, or struggling. Remember Luke getting all bruised and sweaty? The look on his face when he's down on the ground with Vader's saber at his throat? It looked and felt real. You could see the grit and the strain.
It looked like the sabers lost their weight in the PT. None of the actors got dirty and sweaty during the fights. After Luke loses his hand, look at him. He's grunting through gritted teeth, he's filthy, he's angry, he's real. Or when he defeats Vader in RotJ; panting and glowering over him after thrashing the shit out of him. Then look at the PT. The fighting looks easy, and elegant, and flowing, and perfect, and done in an air-conditioned studio with lots of stunt doubles and changes of clothes. Again, the exception is the RotS final duel, and no surprise most people call it the best. I do too (by default), and that gritty, sweaty, panting, struggling look the actors have by the end of it is a part of that quality. But it's just one of like 8 in the trilogy. None of the others come close to it.
It's why I liked the TFA duel. Look at them bleed, look at them gasp, and scream, and sweat, and limp, and snarl, and struggle. It's great! It feels real. And I value that over perfectly executed, polished, stylized choreography any day.
Originally posted by Lord LucienIyo not mine.
The PT duels have three chief problems:1.) The lack of emotional investment in the characters;
2.) The style itself, with the speed, pre-practised perfect routines, and the twirly-whirly; and
3.) The polished, super-clean, sterile looking, effortless movements (and environments).Add number 1, and the others remain. The style I've already b*tched about, but the very look and feel of the fights is fake feeling. Aside from the Anakin-Kenobi duel, there's not alot of sweat, or panting, or struggling. Remember Luke getting all bruised and sweaty? The look on his face when he's down on the ground with Vader's saber at his throat? It looked and felt real. You could see the grit and the strain.
It looked like the sabers lost their weight in the PT. None of the actors got dirty and sweaty during the fights. After Luke loses his hand, look at him. He's grunting through gritted teeth, he's filthy, he's angry, he's real. Or when he defeats Vader in RotJ; panting and glowering over him after thrashing the shit out of him. Then look at the PT. The fighting looks easy, and elegant, and flowing, and perfect, and done in an air-conditioned studio with lots of stunt doubles and changes of clothes. Again, the exception is the RotS final duel, and no surprise most people call it the best. I do too (by default), and that gritty, sweaty, panting, struggling look the actors have by the end of it is a part of that quality. But it's just one of like 8 in the trilogy. None of the others come close to it.
It's why I liked the TFA duel. Look at them bleed, look at them gasp, and scream, and sweat, and limp, and snarl, and struggle. It's great! It feels real. And I value that over perfectly executed, polished, stylized choreography any day.
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.
Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.
TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.
AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.
The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).
Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.
Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where we know what happens (literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates [a la The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.
Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.
Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here.
One big reason the result of that fight causes confusion is because Yoda lost to Palpatine, and we're told/ implied throughout the trilogy (and by out of Universe commentary) that Yoda's the most Powerful Jedi combatant.
But Yoda's fight was just very different to Mace's fight, so that's neither here or there, especially when it's in the same movie where Obi-Wan beats Anakin who beats Dooku who beats Obi-Wan.
And The other big reason the result of the Mace/Palpatine fight has always seemed questionable to people is because it worked out so perfectly for Palpatine that you can't help but wonder if he planned the whole thing.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.
TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.
AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.
The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).
Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.
Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where [b]we know what happens
(literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates [a la The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.
Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here. [/B]
That's a pretty good analysis.
Originally posted by quanchi112Mine's actually worth something.
Iyo not mine.
Originally posted by queeqExactly. By default. It had something, but soggy potato chips are still soggy.
Iyo?Well, even the ROTS fight had its problems: overlong, very weird moments (twirly-whirly duel, hand force lock, swinging from ropes, jumping from flying mini-robot to other mini-robots and... only one emotion, ergo no dynamics).
Originally posted by UshgarakI hadn't even thought about the lackluster endings--usually I'm tuned out by then. They do kinda suck. Kenobi's outburst at the end was well done, and one of the best genuinely emotional moments of the whole trilogy. But given his, uh... deflated reaction to Anakin's fall in the first place, it's existence just kind of makes it the flower from the pot of dirt.
Minus the twirly bit, I broadly agree with that- as I noted, the ROTS duel loses it when they go outside. But it's really good before that.Actually, one thing I would say is that in the PT, they had trouble finding interesting endings to duels. All three major OT duels end well- unexpected Obi-Wan sacrifice, Luke loses a hand and father reveal, Luke goes crazy-bonkers, rejects Dark Side,, Anakin intervenes.
TPM does really well until Obi-Wan falls down the pit. This a good (nearly literal) cliffhanger, but the solution 'he jumps out the pit and kills Maul' is weak.
AOTC is the one I would agree suffers from lack of emotional involvement; it's a good job Lee was playing Dooku or he would have no personality at all (another badly underused character), It has 'Dooku wins but is then driven of by Yoda'. Having to bail out your heroes with the super-master is always unsatisfying- it's exactly why they kept Luke off-screen in TFA.
The Windu fight ending is my favourite of the PT, but it;s led to those endless debates over whether Palpy faked the loss or not (I still say no).
Yoda/Palpatine didn't so much end as fizzle out. I was actually slightly surprised it seemed to be over. It's like Yoda got bored of it and cleared off.
Obi-Wan/Anakin had already lost it by then and 'I have the high ground' seems such an arbitrary ending. Actually, it might have worked better if they had directly linked it to it being the same move Obi-Wan used to defeat Maul. But the fundamental problem ios that it is a duel where [b]we know what happens
(literally we know that of all the PT duels, but it's more emotionally acute here) and it was badly in need of something a little clever at the end- like, Anakin wins (maybe because Obi-Wan's heart isn't in it) but hesitates [a la The Vikings), allowing Obi-Wan to win, or Obi-Wan tries to save Anakin but it all goes awry at the last moment and he's forced to strike him down. Just something to give the closing of the circle a bit of an edge and make us think, even just for a moment, that maybe it could have been different. 'Anakin jumps at Obi-Wan and gets cut in half' is all a bit meh.Luckily McGregor is a good actor and the post-fight speech works out well.
Anyway, TFA's duel ended well enough; we'll see where it goes from here. [/B]
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hey if you're emotionally invested that's great. But I feel nothing for the characters and their motivations, so I feel nothing for their fights and their deaths. That moment where Maul and Kenobi stare each other down though was pretty cool. Until it gave way to the rest of the stale, boring swordfight.And sure, the swordplay is good. It's choreography, it looks cool. But I don't care if it's cool if I don't care about the people making it look cool. But that aside, there's too many moments that look... timed, and careful, and planned. They're flawless, but that makes it feel fake and empty.
Remember when Dooku taunted Anakin during RotS about his anger? And Anakin gives him an angry, determined look, raises his saber above his head and... just sort of attacks him the same way as before: carefully timed and positioned with every swing, but slightly faster, I guess? To show that he's angry? I otherwise kinda like that fight since it's one of the more subdued and understated of the prequels, (not as much of the twirly whirly/jump-happy stuff) but even it has this polished perfectness to its movements that I just don't like. When Vader taunted Luke, Luke snapped and just wailed on him like his sword was a club. I bought that emotion, it felt real. Mad-face Anakin and his sexy, highly-stylized choreography does nothing for me.
👆 x 1000
A lot of people criticize that scene in RotJ because it looks like Luke is just swinging a baseball bat, but that's probably my favorite scene in all of the Star Wars movies.
Originally posted by Lord LucienNo, your opinion clearly isn't. Just remember you don't speak for anyone other than yourself.
Mine's actually worth something.Exactly. By default. It had something, but soggy potato chips are still soggy.
I hadn't even thought about the lackluster endings--usually I'm tuned out by then. They do kinda suck. Kenobi's outburst at the end was well done, and one of the best genuinely emotional moments of the whole trilogy. But given his, uh... deflated reaction to Anakin's fall in the first place, it's existence just kind of makes it the flower from the pot of dirt.