UK Prime Minister: Immigrants have to improve their English or be deported

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Can we stop with this pig nonsense? It was a wild and totally unbacked accusation, and the worst it makes anyone do is laugh at the silly things the privileged do as kids. The idea of it having any impact at all on his office is ludicrous- no-one cares.

Whereas what Trump said can at least be construed as hateful speech, and was literally said on camera as part of an official process.

There's not the remotest comparison.

As for the proposal- the only problem is that he singled out Muslim women as the issue. Whilst right now they likely are the largest group with this problem, it is not a purely Muslim issue and there was no need to make it part of a narrative like that.

As a general scheme, though, it's a good idea. The principle of visas being dependant on language skills is long established; this is tightening it. Anything that encourages more language take-up is a good idea.

Why must you ruin our fun like that?

In principle, I agree. If you haven't learned the country's language in 2.5 years, then you probably have no desire to integrate and you should be booted out.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]Can we stop with this pig nonsense? It was a wild and totally unbacked accusation, and the worst it makes anyone do is laugh at the silly things the privileged do as kids. The idea of it having any impact at all on his office is ludicrous- no-one cares.

If he did bang a pig(maybe he didn't) then yeah, he belongs petitioned away in my opinion. If not? Well then okay no he doesn't.

We can certainly agree to disagree on the issue, but blanket statements like assuming nobody cares or all it does is make people laugh..well, just aren't actually true.

On top of that you seem to attempt to hand wave this as just a silly thing privileged kids do. Really? Maybe you know different privileged kids then I do then.

The allegation was that he put his penis in the mouth of a severed pigs head, as some form of fraternity bonding. Again that's not a crime or anything, and shouldn't preclude him from this office, however it reinforces the opinion that many people already have, i.e. That he is a tool, and mainly looks out for the interests of his rich school buddies, detached from anything normal people care about. On the other hand a lot of people voted for him...so...what can you do.

Anyways, even if we exclude that this change is squarely aimed at already oppressed women, the idea of using language skills as a measuring stick is just not fair and makes little sense to judge whether someone is well integrated anyways, for some people it's a lot harder to learn languages than others, and you can be a perfectly productive member of British society without being able to speak much English at all anyways.

Unless you are being obsessively and uselessly pedantic, then it definitely IS true, as evidenced by the fact that it's made no difference to his political career whatsoever. It is not something the electorate cares about.

Originally posted by Bardock42
[B]The allegation was that he put his penis in the mouth of a severed pigs head, as some form of fraternity bonding. Again that's not a crime or anything, and shouldn't preclude him from this office, however it reinforces the opinion that many people already have, i.e. That he is a tool, and mainly looks out for the interests of his rich school buddies, detached from anything normal people care about. On the other hand a lot of people voted for him...so...what can you do.

Then again saying we should temporarily ban Muslims isn't a crime either. I don't think anyone was saying he committed a crime. I just found it more amusing then anything else.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Anyways, even if we exclude that this change is squarely aimed at already oppressed women, the idea of using language skills as a measuring stick is just not fair and makes little sense to judge whether someone is well integrated anyways, for some people it's a lot harder to learn languages than others, and you can be a perfectly productive member of British society without being able to speak much English at all anyways.

Strongly disagreed. Not being able to speak English is s fundamental reason not to be here- as said, the visa system already relies on that. Cohesion via language is very important to society.

Some people may find it difficult but it doesn't stop them trying- they can certainly try, which I see first hand all the time. It is absolutely my experience that this is the opinion of the majority of the Muslim community, too.

Or we could put it this way: what is harder learning english or living in a war torn country? You want the whole freedom and benefits? Coolsies, learn the damn language.

That is what I'd say. You are free to go back to your home country and then you won't have to learn a new language. Of course you'll be more oppressed there then you ever would in the UK, but meh.

Also just curious, what is the number of countries in the region that aren't being torn apart by war..that have sizeable Muslim populations, and don't have a majority of people who speak english? Surely the number must be zero, right? Otherwise they could make life infinitely easier on themselves by going to one of those places.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Strongly disagreed. Not being able to speak English is s fundamental reason not to be here- as said, the visa system already relies on that. Cohesion via language is very important to society.

Some people may find it difficult but it doesn't stop them trying- they can certainly try, which I see first hand all the time. It is absolutely my experience that this is the opinion of the majority of the Muslim community, too.

How do you deal with those really trying and failing though? Like I agree that people should learn the language, and I also think that basically everyone agrees, like you said. What I'm disagreeing with is deporting people for failing to reach some threshold.

Same thing we do when a normal student falls behind: tutors, etc.

I'd see a lack of trying as worthy of deporting as opposed to trying and failing. Since not even trying just means you want to come, collect the benefits, and contribute nothing.

There is no-one who tries for 2.5 years and is still utterly incapable. They may never be fluent but that's not the yardstick.

One of the biggest benefits of lessons is just getting people who need experience of English the opportunity to be in an English environment. Just being there makes a difference. They can hear English spoken in a real life environment, even see what people look like when speaking, what gestures mean what. They can imitate the simple things that let them get by. It works.

Is there some standard test in determining if someone has learned enough English in the given time?

Originally posted by Robtard
Is there some standard test in determining if someone has learned enough English in the given time?

You have to sing a flawless rendition of the "ABC, as easy as 1,2,3" song.

Originally posted by Robtard
Is there some standard test in determining if someone has learned enough English in the given time?

Not a single standard test but a unified standard that exam boards run by.

Inside Britain's English Classes for Muslim Immigrants

http://www.vice.com/read/we-went-to-an-english-class-for-muslims

From the article:

Teachers for English to Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) have been quick to point out that the £20 million announced this week by Cameron is bullshit, given the £45 million [$64 million] cut he made to these language services in the summer. And that was just the latest round of reductions. In 2007, Labour ended universal free ESOL classes, and the sector has been repeatedly slashed since then. Between 2008 and 2015, ESOL has seen cuts of £160 million [$227 million]; 50 percent of its overall budget.

The cuts have gone hand in hand with an increased government rhetoric on the importance of immigrants learning English. Language proficiency has increasingly been tied to immigration—since 2010, some visas have required a minimum standard of English. Those resident in the UK applying for citizenship must pass a Life in the UK test, answering questions such as, "How many children are there in the UK?" Teachers of ESOL across the country say that they feel increasingly implicated in a wider anti-immigration discourse.