Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I know Anakin is a prodigy and he's ragdolled Ventress, Barriss etc. But it's not that impressive. By ROTS he couldn't even destroy Kenobi with a force push, sad considering Maul can choke him on a regular basis. So how big is Anakin's force advantage? He has a lot of raw power but it's unrefined :/
Anakin is inconsistent in the force as is Maul tbh. Both are unrefined and aren't at their full potential but I give Anakin the slight edge simply because of his greater raw power.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It's not because Ant's riding Gillard's quote to Walhalla that everone has to follow him... I think people are, again, forgetting the context around this quote. From a movie perspective, Gillard's perspective, both Anakin and Windu definitely are a tier 9 duelist like Yoda & Sidous, however that's only under the circumstances the movie brings us. To be more specific, Anakin's only reached that state when he fully released the anger he had been holding back since he was a boy under the inlfuence of Dooku's Dun Moch and Obi-Wan's apparent death while Mace reached this state when he was confronted with the fall of the Republic, his true love, and Sidious, being the most powerful Sith ever.
I agree his rankings are only relevant to the movies (Prequels only), and can not be applied to the larger SW Universe. But they are still Canon to the movie fights IMO. Since I'd say "The Making of Revenge of the Sith" is a valid source.
And sure in Windu's case, he was only in the 1 fight in ROTS, so it's possible his ranking is for that one fight where Vapaad's loop plays a part. But that's just speculation.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
If Anakin or Windu really were tier 9 duelist under normal circumstances then Dooku would have been destroyed in Dark Disciple and Maul couldn't have holded off Windu in SoD since the gap between tier 8 and 9 is very noticeable according to this same Gillard.
Well Anakin clearly wasn't a level 9 yet until ROTS. Dooku a tier 8 has already held off Yoda a tier 9, so Maul temporarily holding off Windu is possible.
But again Gillard's tiers are only relevant to the movies: Episodes 1-3. Which is useful when powerscaling movie versions of the characters only.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I agree his rankings are only relevant to the movies (Prequels only), and can not be applied to the larger SW Universe. But they are still Canon to the movie fights IMO. Since I'd say "The Making of Revenge of the Sith" is a valid source.
To be honest, the other sources are mostly based on and expanding on the movies so the ranking should be translatable to the rest of the universe since it's about the same characters.
And sure in Windu's case, he was only in the 1 fight in ROTS, so it's possible his ranking is for that one fight where Vapaad's loop plays a part. But that's just speculation.
It isn't speculation if it's based on a logical thinking process. Gillard never made a difference between a normal cirucmstances Windu and the one we saw in the movie but we know that there is a difference since the RotS novelization makes it pretty clear.
Well Anakin clearly wasn't a level 9 yet until ROTS. Dooku a tier 8 has already held off Yoda a tier 9, so Maul temporarily holding off Windu is possible. But again Gillard's tiers are only relevant to the movies: Episodes 1-3. Which is useful when powerscaling movie versions of the characters only.
Dark Disciple takes place several months before RotS and in that novel Anakin was only Dooku's equal (or at least pretty close) so I doubt that he could grow so extremely fast that he's making a "huge jump" from tier 8 to 9 in a matter of months. The difference between Yoda/Dooku and Maul/Mace & Secura is that Yoda was pushing Dooku back from the beginning (and would have overwhelmed him had he not escaped) while Maul was effectively holding off both Windu and Secura so if a normal circumstances Windu really is a tier 9 duelist then Maul would have been fighting for his life from the very beginning, especially if Mace had the aid of Aayla.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
To be honest, the other sources are mostly based on and expanding on the movies so the ranking should be translatable to the rest of the universe since it's about the same characters.
I suppose. Just pointing out, it was made for the films only, by a guy who only worked on the films and not the EU.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It isn't speculation if it's based on a logical thinking process. Gillard never made a difference between a normal cirucmstances Windu and the one we saw in the movie but we know that there is a difference since the RotS novelization makes it pretty clear.
True, and given Gillard ranked Mace a 9 for ROTS only (he never confirmed what Mace was in AOTC), and given he was only in that 1 fight in ROTS, then it's safe to assume Mace was a 9 with the superconducting loop on Sidious in place.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Dark Disciple takes place several months before RotS and in that novel Anakin was only Dooku's equal (or at least pretty close) so I doubt that he could grow so extremely fast that he's making a "huge jump" from tier 8 to 9 in a matter of months. The difference between Yoda/Dooku and Maul/Mace & Secura is that Yoda was pushing Dooku back from the beginning (and would have overwhelmed him had he not escaped) while Maul was effectively holding off both Windu and Secura so if a normal circumstances Windu really is a tier 9 duelist then Maul would have been fighting for his life from the very beginning, especially if Mace had the aid of Aayla.
Well even if we ignore Gillard and just go by the novels, it's clear Anakin as he's operating against Dooku in ROTS is significantly above Anakin as he went against Dooku in DD.
So either way he had grown in power in those few months, whether it's by a small or large amount. It's actually confirmed he grew vastly more powerful from the end of S5 to ROTS. So if there's only a small improvement by DD, then the majority of that vast improvement must be in those last few months prior to ROTS.
I think it's always been clear that Dooku is either a low tier 9 or a high tier 8. Given he does seem to have been a tier 8, he must have been right at the top of that tier. So I still wouldn't expect other level 8's like Maul or Kenobi to perform as well as Dooku against a tier 9. But then he didn't do to well against ROTS Skywalker once he set lose, so it may just be down to a clash of styles.
Windu without reflecting Sidious's power is possibly Dooku level, which would explain him struggling to subdue Maul.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Mace's Vaapad power hasn't been confirmed by any Canon source, so that's not safe to assume at all.
ROTS Novel?
Also Ultimate SW confirms Mace's form skirts the dark side and Absolutely Everything You Need to Know confirms Form 7 as Juyo/Vapaad.
So it's a good bet that's still canon. Although we could use a more in depth explanation on how it works tbh.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
^ Gross low-balling of Maul. Mace isn't just going to one shot him
He would if he was operating at Palpatine level.
Edit: Or at least make short work of him.
Also Maul with back up from 2 Death Warch guys actually defeated Mace and Secura Lol. I don't think 2 Death Watch guys would make a difference against Palpatine.
Well obviously the Death Watch warriors aren't going to get Sabers out to fight. They just shot the missile at Mace+Secura which Maul dodged.
Mace+Secura were KO'd so I don't see how they weren't defeated. Obviously Maul didn't solo them, but you really see Maul + 2 Death Watch guys taking out Sidious?
Sidious literally walked through Maul's Death Watch guards without even budging.
Yeah, because Maul knew it was coming. Also, IIRC, didn't he plan with his forces before the Jedi came? And yes, I agree it would never happen to Sidious.
Obviously Sidious >> Mace. Regardless, Mace too would easily cut through a pair of Death Watch guards in a direct contest. Your comparisons really aren't valid.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, because Maul knew it was coming. Also, IIRC, didn't he plan with his forces before the Jedi came? And yes, I agree it would never happen to Sidious.
They just shouted at Maul, Maul dodged and it hit Mace. There was no prior planning. Not that they showed us anyway.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Obviously Sidious >> Mace. Regardless, Mace too would easily cut through a pair of Death Watch guards in a direct contest. Your comparisons really aren't valid.
That's the point. Sidious didn't even need to cut them. He hardly budged. Just walked through them.
Sidious battered Maul + Opress together in a pretty one sided fight, whereas Mace + Secura basically lost to Maul + 2 Deathwatch guards. Sure that shot surprised them, but clearly that wouldn't and couldn't happen to Sidious.
Well, in fairness, that's pretty bad writing to have Mace KO'd by one of those. Fair enough on the lack of planning for Maul, but it still reeks of him having an advantage in that scenario.
Still not a valid comparison. As I said, it's very obvious that Sidious is well beyond Mace. However, Mace alone is capable of beating Maul every time, which is virtually a fact, and one that I imagine everybody here would be capable of agreeing with me on. Your comparison essentially hinges on PIS.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, in fairness, that's pretty bad writing to have Mace KO'd by one of those. Fair enough on the lack of planning for Maul, but it still reeks of him having an advantage in that scenario.
Well let's not just totally forget Mace had another Jedi on side.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Still not a valid comparison. As I said, it's very obvious that Sidious is well beyond Mace. However, Mace alone is capable of beating Maul every time, which is virtually a fact, and one that I imagine everybody here would be capable of agreeing with me on. Your comparison essentially hinges on PIS.
I've never suggested Maul could take Mace. Maul would lose every time to Mace. Although SOD suggests he would put up a fight first. Unlike against Sidious.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
So the point your making Thor is Mace isn't Sidious tier?
Doesn't seem like it from SOD (talking about Canon only right now).
There's also the fact that Mace was stalemating a weakened Mother Talzin off Dathomir in TCW S6. Whereas Sidious was macthing (possibly overpowering) her on Dathomir.
So yeah SOD seems to have confirmed Canon Sidious > Mace to me personally.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Well I don't like Dooku and Mace being in the same tier as Obi-Wan and co so let's just put Sheev and Yoda in God tier, Mace and Dooku in the tier below and then Anakin, Maul, Kenobi...
Except ROTS Anakin is above Dooku, and even TCW Anakin is Dooku tier.
Point is when Mace beat Sidious Vapaad must have still played a role for him to fight exceptionally well in that particular fight. As was the case in Legends.