pis vs cis: the eternal question

first, i realize this may be moved..... second many won't read the wall o text. c'est la vie. i do think this is important though and should be seen and discussed by all.

anyway, another thread raised this issue in my mind. i understand completely the pis/cis distinction. really, i do. my question is this though--if a character CONTINUALLY demonstrates an inability or desire to NOT use their powers to the fullest capacity in the majority of situations, does that then become the NORM for said character?

what i mean is does CHRONIC LACK of use of said powers render cries of pis or cis null and void?

if it is in the character make up of a flash to CONSISTENTLY not use his powers to the fullest, shouldn't that then become the NORM of the character? therefore NOT using the powers would be IN character, as opposed to being pis.

i'm curious what people think. flash and superspeed in general has LONG been an issue in the forum, one i think requiring a special mediation by the powers that be. if we assume flash not using his speed is indeed pis, and we assume max potential in forum matches, shouldn't he be relegated to the trans tier--at least!? and shouldn't that argument hold sway for battles like superman/thor or superman/hulk? those historical debates should clearly be settled if we call speed into question for each one. and that would apply to a LOT of marvel/dc battles.

lastly, should we base tiers (which were created for the sole purpose of aiding people to come up with more fair and equal battles) on how characters perform in comics, or how they would perform in the forum? for some, it would be the same, but for many it would differ by a considerable margin. even spiderman would likely be tiered differently if we based it on forum potential.

just curious what y'all think.

For a character who has dozens of superpowers, being in doubt that he would use a specific one is valid, and doesn't necesarily contradict the full capacity rule. This also varies in relation to the complexity of said ability. e.g. Surfer using a specific type of attack he has demonstrated 1-2 times. Green Lanterns using a specific type of attack he has demonstrated 1-2 times. Thor using Mjolnir to summon an ability he has demonstrated 1-2 times etc.

Now, with the Flash what we're talking about are only basic abilities. That is - not Flash's basic abilities specifically, but what is natural to me or you, or any type of person. Moving. Dodging. Punching. Even the most mentally impaired human being has mastered these. It just happens that Flash is capable of doing it faster than anybody else.

If we're starting to say that Flash wouldn't use his speed, on this forum [where the full capacity is in rule], it would be the equivalent of saying that you, or me, wouldn't dodge a punch coming in at 0.000(0)000000001x speed of a normal punch. That we'd purposely, and for no logical reason move orders of magnitude slower than we usually can.

This is not something estoric that we can say that he has forgot how to do. The only way we can justify Flash ever being hit in a forum, full-capacity, no-PIS environment by somebody like HUlk, is if we're saying that he's dumber than any human being that has ever lived. And that's not something we can afford - comics can, because they want to tell a story, but we're not constricted by story. We don't build a narrative where eveybody has to look good. This is not a fan-fiction forum. We debate posibilities [in character] of fights. And if in-character means that Flash wouldn't use his speed, that would mean he is, like I've said, the most mentally impaired human ever.

energy drain cough cough silver surfer cough chough

I agree with you Leo. At the end of the day, everything we mention about these characters come from comics and if we are debating primarily off of power level then...

You have to debate using personality here because when we are discussing Hulk, we are talking about the entirety of that character, not just his abilities. When we are discussing Superman, we are talking about the entirety of the character, not just his abilities.

I think this is a pick and choose situation imo. I never see people jump in a thread saying Odin will begin his attack off with a Galaxy buster. Never see people say Surfer would use half of his versatility in combat or Thor busting out a God blast during the onset of the battle. That's why we title threads CIS off so that these characters get to do what? Fight out of character.

Thor average showing is always considered on the forum. 90% of the people here consider him a brick first and think of him as a versatility being second. The only issue we have is when it's concerning speed and 99% of the time, Heralds rarely if ever use that ability. A weighing should be done...an average. On average what would Flash do, what would Thor do or Superman and when everyone thinks about it, we know exactly how they'll approach a fight. Powerset debating has never been a KMC thing and it should not start either...especially with the picking and choosing of when to do so.

i think phil's point is valid, and it might lead to a special rule being applied to flash in the forum. if his view is the view of the majority, flash should be removed from the forum.

i'd offer a different perspective though first: flash can't live in the state of hyperspeed at all times. i know there is some proof that he often does, but to assume he ALWAYS does would make his life, essentially, impossible. i mean from his hyperspeed perspective, he'd literally he waiting around for.....a billion years for someone to finish blinking.

i've always assumed (and i think it's backed up by the fact that he lives a daily life, as well as by the fact that he has, at times, been forced to speed UP his perceptions) that the state of speed he inhabits is entirely up to him. if that's true, it would simply be IN CHARACTER for him to live in a more moderate state of speed, or perhaps at times to even exist in a normal speed state. by that reasoning, flash NOT using his full capacity would, again, be IN CHARACTER, as opposed to being constant pis. if we go by comics, and his showings, it would seem to me at least, that the latter would be the case. it would have nothing to do with him being a moron for not using his full speed, but it would have more to do with him having to live in a world moving at a speed that would otherwise drive him insane. (i even think there is something like that expressed by flash in a book at some point, but i have no idea where.... 🙁 )

it just seems to me that we either except forum flash as a being that effortlessly kills heralds (hell, he could calculate ways to kill, then follow through with killing the entire tier at once) or, we have to look at his powers differently. or just remove him from forum battles because speed, above all things i think, leads to the most circular of debates. not just as relates to flash, but as relates to many of the dc guys.

i really don't care one way or the other. i think phil's point is probably as valid as my own. it just seems to lead to some pretty crazy lengths, lengths (it would seem) most people are not comfortable supporting.

this whole thread is just food for thought.

"Average" depiction of superheroes is NOT fullcapacity.

Fullcapacity will mean their highest showings

Heroes may start a battle at averge showings but as the battle keeps going they most likely will raise their power levels to high levels to fight a powerful enemy, that is IF they don't get KOed before they start displaying their more powerful attacks.

Saying that "average" showings should be used as full capacity is just plain and simple wrong. IMO

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
"Average" depiction of superheroes is NOT fullcapacity.

Fullcapacity will mean their highest showings

Heroes may start a battle at averge showings but as the battle keeps going they most likely will raise their power levels to high levels to fight a powerful enemy, that is IF they don't get KOed before they start displaying their more powerful attacks.

Saying that "average" showings should be used as full capacity is just plain and simple wrong. IMO

Their highest showings? That ain't true. If that's the case, caps need to be pulled off all of these characters.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've always assumed (and i think it's backed up by the fact that he lives a daily life, as well as by the fact that he has, at times, been forced to speed UP his perceptions) that the state of speed he inhabits is entirely up to him. if that's true, it would simply be IN CHARACTER for him to live in a more moderate state of speed, or perhaps at times to even exist in a normal speed state. by that reasoning, flash NOT using his full capacity would, again, be IN CHARACTER, as opposed to being constant pis. if we go by comics, and his showings, it would seem to me at least, that the latter would be the case. it would have nothing to do with him being a moron for not using his full speed, but it would have more to do with him having to live in a world moving at a speed that would otherwise drive him insane. (i even think there is something like that expressed by flash in a book at some point, but i have no idea where.... 🙁 )

If I had superspeed, of course I wouldn't use it 100% of the time, because everything would be stopped around me. But if I'd be fighting Hulk, I would. I don't want him to hit me. In fact, I don't want him to even get a change to move - I'm not retarded. Why would Flash do any different?

Also, the scan you're looking for is this one:
http://i.imgur.com/ogeYPKv.jpg

Which most certainly hurts your case, since it also draws a distinction between everyday life and a fight.

I'm just trying to get your rationale here.

Originally posted by carver9
Their highest showings? That ain't true. If that's the case, caps need to be pulled off all of these characters.

So yo want to handicap everyone to "average" not full capacity?

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
So yo want to handicap everyone to "average" not full capacity?

You said highest showings. That doesn't have a thing to do with full potential.

Originally posted by carver9
You said highest showings. That doesn't have a thing to do with full potential.

Sigh.

You punch on average at 3 lbs per square inch, but when you really put effort into it you punch at 6 lbs.

Since your highest showing is 6 lbs I should handicap you at 3lbs because that is your average? Or should I consider that under certain circumstances and when you put effort into it you can actually punch at 6lbs?

So what will be your full potential 3 lbs or 6 lbs?

Your highest will be your full potential depicted

first, phukc you quote function.

secondly, @phil, i'm not talking about the hulk/flash battle anymore. that was just a springboard for a different set of questions i have regarding the nature of pis vs cis.

i get what you're saying 100%. and i agree, hulk, any hulk, would never hit flash, even a non-forum flash. my thoughts on that battle and what would happen are in the thread though you likely disagree with them.

i'm genuinely interested in the cis/pis issue and what should or maybe shouldn't constitute one or the other. i also admit that i may be wrong in the way i'm trying to rationalize the issue. i'm not trying to use averages, as rao was suggesting. i'm trying to say when does consistent comic portrayal become the accepted norm for a character? since it is by use of comics that we judge these characters, shouldn't their consistent portrayal dictate what is, or is not within their character?

your scan was a good find, but it's not the one i was thinking of. wish i could remember it more clearly. i will try and dig it up.

an example different from flash--i recall when i first joined here, everyone used to scream it was pis that logan could fight the hulk. over time, that fact was no longer considered pis because it has been borne out in comics so many times. along those lines, logan's joints CAN'T be subject to adamantium treatment. it makes no sense. he couldn't move. but......

both of those things are no longer pis because of consistent recurrence. if flash, or whoever, consistently displays a reluctance, misuse of his/her power, shouldn't that then become a part of his/her character, no longer subject to pis BECAUSE of that fact? it's an honest question.

norrin is a very reliable narrator. at full capacity why not simply open black holes behind everyone's eyes? because it's not in character. i'm trying to figure out why flash is treated differently. you mentioned exotic powers vs mundane, but to ss, his powers ARE mundane. or as mundane as flash thinking at infinite speeds, or reacting in attoseconds at least.

and i would really like to know should we base tiers on forum levels, or comic levels, because their is a pretty vast difference for a lot of characters.....

I wasn't suggesting you to use averages. My post was directed to Carver.

Sorry for the confusion 🙂

This thread is obviously aimed at me, as I am the brightest, the best, the most beautiful of all.

There are several characters this applies to. Batman, Cap, Deadman, Flash, Spiderman.

They all transcend their tier. How many times is Batman described as 'human-level'? Yet, he does things no human can do - and then adds other feats on top. He outlifts our finest athletes - whilst being Olympic-level in agility, whilst being a master of 127 different martial arts etc etc.

Should we throw all of his showings out as PIS? After all, it jars with the 'human-level' description. BUT, it makes fora good story to see Batman on Venom bloodying Superman up.

At the OTHER end of the spectrum, is Flash. Unlike Batman/Cap/Spidey, he RARELY displays any fight showings. Why? Because he is a sniper bullet. How do you write effective fight scenes against a sniper bullet?

Whilst all his powers may seem mundane to Surfer, it's still a wide and varied menu to choose from. Does he go intangible? Soul crush? Punch? Kick? Blast? TP attacks? Black holes? Board in the back at c? Forced evolution/devolution? Illusions? Which one does he choo-oh wait, he's been punched.

Of course, Surfer doesn't do all this. Match starts, he usually opens up with blasting. Match starts, Superman opens up with punching. Wolverine starts with snikting.

And Barry/Wally open up with superspeed punching. Their perceptions/minds are ALWAYS, in a battle, already sped up - assuming they're not noobs.

In effect, it's super intelligence. Reed/Stark/Wayne don't start a battle stupid, then ramp up to supercalculating. And this is why superspeed/intelligence are the two hardest powers to display correctly. This doesn't mean we should ignore it, though.

Flash would do incredibly well in the Invincible Universe, with Kirkman's decision not to shirk from gory fight scenes that actually have consequences. Why else do you think there are no speedsters on Flash's level? You have parodies of everyone else.

And once more, carver shows he knows nothing about Hulk, or his character. Pak goes all out of the way to detail how the Worldbreaker came to be...having him go WBH mode in every fight cheapens the entire storyline, and makes a mockery of the Hulk's attachments (hey, he goes WBH because he lost his wife, kid, home and all his friends, therefore, he goes WBH everytime he fights!)

Originally posted by leonidas
first, phukc you quote function.

Just do [*quote]Originally posted by Philosophia[*quote]

Anyway, my take on it..
On the issue of superspeed - I think we both know my opinion. It's just too basic of an ability to every human being [move/dodge/punch] that to say somebody being capable of casually doing this a billion times better wouldn't, as that would require us to take his intelligence level to inanimate objects-level.

As for the rest of the situations - it's much easier to discuss. Superman wouldn't heat vision people's brain through their eyeballs before they're able to percieve the fight has started - because that's something pretty obscure to do [and savage]. He also wouldn't find their vibrational frequency and erase them from existence because that, again, is very obscure. None of this would happen more than 1/10-20, even less.

I saw your Surfer example and he has never opened black holes in somebody's eyes - nevermind opponents with invulnerability, or with the ability to manipulate energy, to fight back strongly before he does anything etc. We can't debate a statement without seeing it in action. And also a once-in-a-comic-history statement.

I visualize these fights pretty simple - what if all of these characters were real people, with their entire history and personality, what would they most likely do in this fight, that is obvious to their personality, abilities and history of usage, but wouldn't make them idiots for not using them? For those who have the basic abilities enhanced [i.e. speedsters, fliers], that's something that wouldn't be ignored, because that's the first level of abilities. Then we go to secondary most used abilities. Thor would plausibly use his weather abilities. Superman would plausibly use his heat vision. Surfer would plausibly hit people with his board. Next level? That's where the abilities would be used 1/10-20. Soul suck, transmutation etc.

I think the first rule would be - abilities that are basic [speed, telepathy etc.] should always be considered in use, if not using them would make the character an objective idiot. [not necesarilly IMPs from the get go - but certainly never being touched]. If you were Flash and you wouldn't hit with the mass of a dwarf star, it wouldn't make you an idiot. If you were the Flash and you would get hit by a non-speedster, it would.

Also, this:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whilst all his powers may seem mundane to Surfer, it's still a wide and varied menu to choose from. Does he go intangible? Soul crush? Punch? Kick? Blast? TP attacks? Black holes? Board in the back at c? Forced evolution/devolution? Illusions? Which one does he choo-oh wait, he's been punched.

Of course, Surfer doesn't do all this. Match starts, he usually opens up with blasting. Match starts, Superman opens up with punching. Wolverine starts with snikting.

And Barry/Wally open up with superspeed punching. Their perceptions/minds are ALWAYS, in a battle, already sped up - assuming they're not noobs.

I imagine characters fighting as if I were writing the comic, so yes, their *usual* personalities and *standard* behavior/skill deployment would/should be present. This means the usual CIS/PIS ... though this becomes complex with characters who*occasionally* do esoteric things, this being determined by story/writer's whim, a factor not present in the forums.

Originally posted by leonidas
Flash sucks.

Here, fixed the OP for you, so now everyone can read it in a fraction of a second.

Will never reach an aggreement

Originally posted by leonidas
first, i realize this may be moved..... second many won't read the wall o text. c'est la vie. i do think this is important though and should be seen and discussed by all.

anyway, another thread raised this issue in my mind. i understand completely the pis/cis distinction. really, i do. my question is this though--if a character CONTINUALLY demonstrates an inability or desire to NOT use their powers to the fullest capacity in the majority of situations, does that then become the NORM for said character?

what i mean is does CHRONIC LACK of use of said powers render cries of pis or cis null and void?

if it is in the character make up of a flash to CONSISTENTLY not use his powers to the fullest, shouldn't that then become the NORM of the character? therefore NOT using the powers would be IN character, as opposed to being pis.

i'm curious what people think. flash and superspeed in general has LONG been an issue in the forum, one i think requiring a special mediation by the powers that be. if we assume flash not using his speed is indeed pis, and we assume max potential in forum matches, shouldn't he be relegated to the trans tier--at least!? and shouldn't that argument hold sway for battles like superman/thor or superman/hulk? those historical debates should clearly be settled if we call speed into question for each one. and that would apply to a LOT of marvel/dc battles.

lastly, should we base tiers (which were created for the sole purpose of aiding people to come up with more fair and equal battles) on how characters perform in comics, or how they would perform in the forum? for some, it would be the same, but for many it would differ by a considerable margin. even spiderman would likely be tiered differently if we based it on forum potential.

just curious what y'all think.

Cis comes into play when there is a logical explanation why a character doesn't use a power or powers. For example, Superman doesn't kill, Thor is a warrior and often values a fair fight, rhino is an idiot, etc. Is there a logical explanation why flash won't clock his enemy at the start? If there is then we can argue Cis and not pis. If there isn't then it was plot based to support the story.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Sigh.

You punch on average at 3 lbs per square inch, but when you really put effort into it you punch at 6 lbs.

Since your highest showing is 6 lbs I should handicap you at 3lbs because that is your average? Or should I consider that under certain circumstances and when you put effort into it you can actually punch at 6lbs?

So what will be your full potential 3 lbs or 6 lbs?

Your highest will be your full potential depicted

I don't think you understand the difference between accepting just high showings versus average. You might as well bump Wolverine up to Herald levels if that's the case. High, medium, and lows should all be averaged out to come to a medium. We don't ignore all showings and focus directly on highs. That's crazy.