The case for Vitiate > RotS Sidious: Powerscaling

I hold that TPM Sidious > Valkorian (and Plagueis > Valkorian), but this is the most convincing counterargument IMHO.

So if we want to put the Sith Emperor above Sidious, we just need to compare how thoroughly they dominate the competition.

Palpatine is obviously far stronger than the likes of Dooku/Maul/Savage etc. But, he still needs to engage the B-team in a precious several seconds of actual dueling that gives Windu time to sink into vaapad. His relative peer, Yoda, seems to be exerted when he duels Dooku in AotC. Dooku, in turn, struggles against (and loses to) Anakin and Obi Wan, each of whom frequently struggle against the likes of Maul and Savage. So if we buy this chain, Sidious cannot be inconceivably more powerful than anyone else in the PT.

The story is different for Vitiate. He is apparently so much more powerful than pretty much everyone else in his era that it's kind of ridiculous. He is >>> all six dread masters combined, each one of which has fleet-soloing TP feats. He is >>> Revan 3.0, Malgus, Jadus, Satele, etc. He takes out entire strike teams of high powered sith and jedi.

So, if we have Sidious > Vitiate, we would have to put each dread master at < 17% of Palpatine's power, and subsequently make them insects compared to, say, Vader (80% of RotJ Palpatine). A lot of other TOR heavyweights seem to be on par with or weaker than the dread masters, so we'd have to assume that pretty much everyone in TOR is weaker than Kit Fisto by a substantial margin for the arithmetic to make sense.

This becomes more loaded when we look at Vitiate's crazy progression; by the Revan novel he's already noticeably above Revan Reborn, then he gains several substantial power boosts from there. If Revan ~= Vader as some people believe, or even ~= Dooku, I don't think there's enough room between Vader/Dooku and Sidious to say that TOR Vitiate hasn't surpassed Palpatine.

I also think that people intuitively get this impression. If someone created a thread "Malgus, Jadus and HoT vs. Valkorian", most people would probably say Valkorian (that's the impression the game gives you). But the thread about Palpatine vs. his apprentices has a decent chunk going for the apprentices. Vitiate gives off the vibe of being more unbeatable than Sidious.

If everyone in TOR was even remotely comparable to Valkorion in anything, and if Malgus, Jadus and the HoT were close to Maul, Dooku, and Vader, you'd have a point with scaling. Unfortunately, neither is true. Valkorion is impressive because he has feats no one in his era can currently match. Sidious has Force Storm and that's about it, and even then it's whon that it can be stopped by a fetus.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If everyone in TOR was even remotely comparable to Valkorion in anything, and if Malgus, Jadus and the HoT were close to Maul, Dooku, and Vader, you'd have a point with scaling. Unfortunately, neither is true. Valkorion is impressive because he has feats no one in his era can currently match. Sidious has Force Storm and that's about it, and even then it's whon that it can be stopped by a fetus.

Even assuming Malgus, Jadus and the HoT aren't close to Maul, Dooku, and Vader, it's nitpicking given that you can easily replace the former 3 with Arcann, Revan, and the Dread Masters. Valkorion is impressive because of Ziost and the fact that he's shown himself to be so utterly superior to beings that can down fleets, rape the Outlander, slaughter through armies of dark Jedi, Jedi-killing mega droids, and the Dark Lord of the Sith far pre prime, and easily one shot one of the 3-5 most powerful dark council members we've seen (Nyriss). Oh yeah and resist the Dread Masters/Vitiate for 300 years.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If everyone in TOR was even remotely comparable to Valkorion in anything,

That's the point, though - you can make the case that nobody else in TOR is, which makes it unlikely that Sidious > Valkorian unless if you have Maul/Dooku/Vader >>>>>> Malgus/Jadus/HoT.

and if Malgus, Jadus and the HoT were close to Maul, Dooku, and Vader,

Most people put Jadus and Revan around Vader's tier. For Sidious > Valkorian to hold, you'd arguably have to put even SOR Revan below Maul.

Valkorion is impressive because he has feats no one in his era can currently match. Sidious has Force Storm and that's about it

Sidious also has other feats such as his musings of tearing down the imperial palace and dismantlement of the B-team. Honestly the best arguments for Palpatine are his accolades ("most powerful sith lord in history"😉 and feats.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Even assuming Malgus, Jadus and the HoT aren't close to Maul, Dooku, and Vader, it's nitpicking given that you can easily replace the former 3 with Arcann, Revan, and the Dread Masters.

Valkorion is impressive because of Ziost and the fact that he's shown himself to be so utterly superior to beings that can down fleets,

rape the Outlander,

slaughter through armies of dark Jedi,

Jedi-killing mega droids, and the Dark Lord of the Sith far pre prime, and easily one shot one of the 3-5 most powerful dark council members we've seen (Nyriss). Oh yeah and resist the Dread Masters/Vitiate for 300 years.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's the point, though - you can make the case that nobody else in TOR is, which makes it unlikely that Sidious > Valkorian unless if you have Maul/Dooku/Vader >>>>>> Malgus/Jadus/HoT.

Most people put Jadus and Revan around Vader's tier. For Sidious > Valkorian to hold, you'd arguably have to put even SOR Revan below Maul.

Sidious also has other feats such as his musings of tearing down the imperial palace and dismantlement of the B-team.

Honestly the best arguments for Palpatine are his accolades ("most powerful sith lord in history"😉 and feats.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Or you can stop with the assumption that Sidious must be more powerful than Valkorion.

😕 That's the literal opposite of what I was arguing for...

Exactly? I realize. Doesn't matter what you're arguing for. I argued the opposite.

No, dude, I was making a case for why Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious. You weren't arguing the opposite, you were inadvertently agreeing with me and still trying to argue for some reason. I think you messed up reading the OP, lol. It's no big deal.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except those were the examples given, so it's not nitpicking at all, lel.

With Battle Meditation.

Eh.

Something they couldn't do after KotOR II, so not sure how that's a point for Vitiate.

As impressive as that all is, Revan drawing off a Force Ghost for the last part, with killing droids as most of the first, it's not what makes Valkorion or Vitiate, or whatever, powerful as that still brings in power scaling. It's him being able to do what others in his era can't

Nitpicking was probably the wrong word. "Irrelevant" would probably be more sound.

Yeah.

Arcann raping HoT then resisting weakened Valkorion's still insanely powerful lightning for some time is immensely impressive. And yet he gets casually cast aside by Peak!Valkorion.

I agree that him being able to do things far beyond the capabilities of other force users in his era is what makes him powerful. But the fact of the matter is that's clearly facilitated by him annihilating Revan far pre prime, one shotting Arcann, being considered infinitely more powerful than the Dread Masters by the Wrath, etc.

Sure, I agree there, but I don't agree with the general vibe of the OP that everything in TOR is comparable to everything in the OT, and this makes Valkorion more powerful, which is kind of what I'm saying, though.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Arcann raping HoT then resisting weakened Valkorion's still insanely powerful lightning for some time is immensely impressive. And yet he gets casually cast aside by Peak!Valkorion.

I agree that him being able to do things far beyond the capabilities of other force users in his era is what makes him powerful. But the fact of the matter is that's clearly facilitated by him annihilating Revan far pre prime, one shotting Arcann, being considered infinitely more powerful than the Dread Masters by the Wrath, etc.

Interesting analysis. I approve. 🙂

Of course you do.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Of course you do.

Power-scaling is a useful method to assess the position of a character vis-a-vis to his surroundings.

With KOTFE, Valky might have surpassed Sidious in the force, but he still isn't beating him all out imo.

Tempest, respond.

Yes, my child?

Produce your opinion.

Is Sidious being the most powerful sith lord in history a canon quote? If so it shouldn't matter because Vitiate is legends right?