How good is Scourge

Revan Scourge isn't very impressive. He is prodigious in the sense that he was at the top of his class at the academy, but he was afraid of taking on Dark Council members and held no position of significance in the empire. And he was already at the age at where Obi Wan had become a legendary warrior and Luke had begun reaching his EU Wankwalker state. He's probably in the top 0.01% of Force users in natural potential, but nowhere near the likes of Obi Wan or even Ahsoka.

TOR Scourge has been amped by the Emperor beyond his natural potential, so IDK.

Revan Scourge actually killed a Dark Council member and his guards. He was a Lord and even as of then accomplished a lot. Shortly, he was given a position even higher than a Dark Council seat. TOR Scourge should be tiers above his novel incarnation. I don't see how he isn't up there with names like Kenobi. Him stalemating the most powerful Jedi of the era is his only feat which really isn't anything embarrassing.

Also LOL @ comparing the second most prodigious character in the lore to Scourge.

Lol @ Scourge being "nowhere" near Obi-Wan's force potential. Obi-Wan who was almost put into the agricultural corps.

Also Revan Scourge still defeated the head of the Imperial Guard plus a guardsmen at once, who were so lethal the most powerful Sith Lords typically just surrendered to death rather than face them. He also tanked Xedrix's entire "enormous power" focused into a single attack.

Originally posted by Sinious
Revan Scourge actually killed a Dark Council member and his guards.

An old and weak one, sure. He was really terrified at the prospect. .ie there's no reason to believe he would stand a chance against Ki-adi Mundi or any of the members of the wanked out RotS Jedi Council.

He was a Lord and even as of then accomplished a lot.

So being a Lord makes him super-powerful now?

Revan Scourge is impressive in the sense that he's probably in the top 0.1% of Force users in galactic history. That fits with his being the best duelist in the academy and having "great potential" per Revan's musings. If he were a talent on the level of, say, Obi Wan, he would've accomplished more by age 30+. Obi Wan by age 30+ was a match for "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history" and a member of the Jedi High Council. Scourge, meanwhile, was scared shitless at the prospect of facing a member of the Dark Council. Their positions in their respective Orders tells a lot about their comparative power levels.

There's a big difference between being a Macarthur Genius award winner and being Neils Bohr.

Shortly, he was given a position even higher than a Dark Council seat.

Did you actually read the novel or are you being deliberately obtuse? He wasn't given the position because he was super powerful.

TOR Scourge should be tiers above his novel incarnation.

Of course he is; his powers are boosted by Vitiate.

Also LOL @ comparing the second most prodigious character in the lore to Scourge.

I'm sorry, you clearly missed the point, and by a wide margin. I invoked the examples of Obi Wan and Luke to demonstrate the broader argument that Scourge in Revan is wholly unremarkable. This does not mean that he is below average. Your retorts demonstrate a lack of understanding of what I mean by "unremarkable".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol @ Scourge being "nowhere" near Obi-Wan's force potential. Obi-Wan who was almost put into the agricultural corps.

Late bloomers exist; a fairer comparison is to put Obi Wan at Scourge's age against him, which makes the gulf between the two pretty apparent.

Also Revan Scourge still defeated the head of the Imperial Guard

A non Force-sensitive? Oooohhhh.

plus a guardsmen at once, who were so lethal the most powerful Sith Lords typically just surrendered to death rather than face them.

Yeah, so? Obi Wan defeated "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history" in combat multiple times, not to mention The Chosen One. How does Scourge beating some guardsmen that can intimidate no-name sith lords compare?

He also tanked Xedrix's entire "enormous power" focused into a single attack.

Do you actually think "enormous power" meaningfully quantifies your point?

Wasn't it stated in the Revan novel that Xedrix was weak as shit at that point also?

Originally posted by Trocity
Wasn't it stated in the Revan novel that Xedrix was weak as shit at that point also?

Yeah, it was implied that Scourge could not have defeated him in his prime.

There's no reason to think that Xedrix is all that special anyway. Scourge, hardly a bastion of humility, considers himself to be below Dark Council members in power, so he's likely below any of the council members in the Jedi Golden Age (the PT). Scourge < Ki-adi Mundi and <<<< RotS Obi Wan.

This isn't inconsistent with the knowledge that he can defeat imperial guardsmen, master juyo and possess "enormous potential". There's a wide gulf between being at the top of your class at MIT, and being Von Neumann.

TCW Maul level.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
An old and weak one, sure. He was really terrified at the prospect. .ie there's no reason to believe he would stand a chance against Ki-adi Mundi or any of the members of the wanked out RotS Jedi Council.

So being a Lord makes him super-powerful now?

Revan Scourge is impressive in the sense that he's probably in the top 0.1% of Force users in galactic history. That fits with his being the best duelist in the academy and having "great potential" per Revan's musings. If he were a talent on the level of, say, Obi Wan, he would've accomplished more by age 30+. Obi Wan by age 30+ was a match for "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history" and a member of the Jedi High Council. Scourge, meanwhile, was scared shitless at the prospect of facing a member of the Dark Council. Their positions in their respective Orders tells a lot about their comparative power levels.

There's a big difference between being a Macarthur Genius award winner and being Neils Bohr.

These comparisons don't have any importance when evaluating feats. I mean, Vitiate as little kid has more prodigious feats than Anakin. Does that mean Anakin wouldn't surpass him given enough time? Absolutely not.

Did you actually read the novel or are you being deliberately obtuse? He wasn't given the position because he was super powerful.

I'm sorry, you clearly missed the point, and by a wide margin. I invoked the examples of Obi Wan and Luke to demonstrate the broader argument that Scourge in Revan is wholly unremarkable. This does not mean that he is below average. Your retorts demonstrate a lack of understanding of what I mean by "unremarkable".

Do the math.

👆

Originally posted by Nephthys

Also Revan Scourge still defeated the head of the Imperial Guard plus a guardsmen at once, who were so lethal the most powerful Sith Lords typically just surrendered to death rather than face them. He also tanked Xedrix's entire "enormous power" focused into a single attack.

Tbh I find that really bonkers, the Imperial Guards of Vitiate, only are noted to have months of training and yet this somehow translates to them being able to defeat powerful Sith Lords?

Originally posted by Sinious
The guy still sent out a charged attack that completely depleted his force powers. Scourge survived it, and then stomped the guy. He clearly isn't incapable of handling DC level power even if he can't compete with top council level power.

He only managed that because Xedrix was old and feeble and Scourge did manage to see through his bluff. But he had serious doubts about being able to take down a council member in their prime. .ie he's not that powerful, and it just happened that the member he faced was really old.

Scourge < the average council member, it just happens that there's a distribution in abilities among the council, and he lucked upon the left end of the curve. This means that Scourge likely << average RotS council member, .ie Ki-adi Mundi.

No, you're the one who brought up titles.

*sigh* Your interpretation of my analogy is hilariously off. My point was that there is a wide difference in ability between being "really powerful" relative to the general body of jedi/sith and actually being remarkable against notable named faces such as Anakin and Obi Wan, who are remarkable in the course of galactic history. Scourge is the former; he was the best duelist in his academy. He is not, by any stretch, the latter by the Revan novel.

Tell me, since you've yet failed to provide any analysis of the type; what has Revan Scourge done to put him on the level of Obi Wan, or even Agen Kolar? Beating up a bunch of droids and mercenaries? Getting owned by Nyriss? Killing some non-Force sensitive imperial guards?

These comparisons don't have any importance when evaluating feats. I mean, Vitiate as little kid has more prodigious feats than Anakin. Does that mean Anakin wouldn't surpass him given enough time? Absolutely not.

Traits become more heritable with age. Testing childhood abilities is noisy and filled with plenty of confounding variables (such as the dark side being the quicker route to power); but Scourge is nearing his 30s and should already be approaching his prime.

But what exactly are you trying to criticize here? Are you suggesting that I can't judge Scourge by his feats and accolates because he might have a huge growth spurt at age 40 and become uber? 🙄

LOL, trust me I know every detail in that novel. Again, you're the one who brought up titles to lowball Scourge and now when I tell you that he actually received a really high title as a result of his actions, you accuse me of relating title to power. Nice try, but no one's buying your shitty logic. 👆

🙄 Scourge received a high title because he seemingly saved the Emperor's life against Revan and Meetra. Before this set of circumstances, he was a wholly unremarkable sith. Unlike, say, Obi Wan and Anakin, whose combat prowess was already legendary by TCW.

As for my argument from titles, that was Scourge's own doubt. It was hardly a weak on; titles are not perfect translations to power (Malgus was never on the council, for instance), but being on the council clearly correlates with being strong in the Force well enough for Scourge to make rough estimates of his chances against one of its members, and his estimate is that he wouldn't stand a chance. His estimate was wrong, because there's obviously a variance in abilities between council members based on age, etc., and he happened upon one who was old. Twenty years earlier he'd have been crushed, per his own judgment.

You're making completely irrelevant assumptions based on pointless comparisons instead of properly analyzing the information we have on the character and his actual showings. Let me help you with that: as you have already admitted, Scourge grew tremendously as a combatant after 300 years of most elite experience and Vitiate's ritual. So, every feat he has in the novel reflects a quite limited version of prime version of the character. Yet he still managed to pull off quite impressive feats compared to where he is placed generally. Scourge during the novel is on decent tier and as a result Scourge as of SWTOR should logically be on a much higher tier. HoT who already had the best accolades after Vitiate and Revan (and arguably feats too) fought him and it was said that Scourge for a "mysterious" decided stalemated him.

Do the math.

I love how you never bother to actually explain what these feats are or meaningfully quantify them; you just say that they are "quite impressive". Meanwhile, when I point out that Obi Wan far exceeds Revan Scourge in feats and accolades, you jump into a weird and incoherent ramble about how child Vitiate's power means we can never judge combatants by feats and accolades. The most you've claimed Scourge can do is beat an old and weak dark council member.

Then you proudly declare that you'll "help me through" your brilliant logic (as if you'd the capacity to "help me through" anything)...by referring to the Scourge we see in TOR, you know, the one being explicitly amped by the Emperor. I pointed that amp out to you, didn't I? Did you ever respond to it? I dunno, I used lots of polysyllabic words.

No-ones saying that Revan Scourge is comparable to peak Obi-Wan, dipshit. We're saying that he was still rather impressive in his own right even at that comparatively feeble point in his advancement. The Scourge is TOR would be massively improved over him. By establishing Scourges impressiveness as of Revan we are accentuating his later impressiveness as the Emperor's Wrath.

Duh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No-ones saying that Revan Scourge is comparable to peak Obi-Wan, dipshit.

Actually, you said "Lol @ Scourge being "nowhere" near Obi-Wan's force potential." Obi-Wan who was almost put into the agricultural corps." Scourge as of Revan is roughly the same age as RotS Obi Wan.

Now you don't even seem to understand how to even judge what you're supposed to be arguing against; I started the line of thought that Revan Scourge < Obi Wan. That you now claim to agree with me isn't something that I should feel sorry for, or that discounts what I was saying. If you don't disagree with me, don't debate with me!

We're saying that he was still rather impressive in his own right

Which is exactly what I said in my first post on this topic. But unlike you, I tried to add some sort of substance to my post and quantify how impressive he was, rather than just awkwardly bumble that he's "rather impressive" (what does that mean? Darth Bandon? Yoda?)

even at that comparatively feeble point in his advancement.

Funny, RotS Obi Wan is at that same comparatively feeble point...

The Scourge is TOR would be massively improved over him. By establishing Scourges impressiveness as of Revan we are accentuating his later impressiveness as the Emperor's Wrath.

Funny, I've pointed out five or so times by now that TOR Scourge is being amped beyond his natural potential by the Emperor. Did you ever bother to read or respond to me...? Oh, no, it might have been a somewhat complicated concept for you to grasp.

I guess you don't understand the meaning of the word "potential". Try looking it up and then get back to me.

Scourge was stated to possess enormous untapped potential AS OF REVAN, meaning that he still had massive amounts of ability left to achieve AS OF REVAN, meaning that BETWEEN REVAN AND SWTOR he'd have improved extremely significantly in terms of his own, personal ability and power. 300 years gives him enough time to almost certainly max out on his potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I guess you don't understand the meaning of the word "potential". Try looking it up and then get back to me.

My initial claim was that Revan Scourge isn't very impressive. The question of what he could become is only a tangential thought.

And yes, potential =/= natural talent, which is why I made a very specific case for guessing his potential from his abilities in Revan. Did you ever respond to that specific case? No, you just ignored the connection between ability and potential I made and tried to lecture me on not seeing the difference. 🙄

Scourge was stated to possess enormous untapped potential AS OF REVAN,
meaning that he still had massive amounts of ability left to achieve AS OF REVAN, meaning that BETWEEN REVAN AND SWTOR he'd have improved extremely significantly in terms of his own, personal ability and power. 300 years gives him enough time to almost certainly max out on his potential.

Can you provide me with the data points you use to quantify how much room he has to improve, rather than just vaguely saying "extremely significantly"? Because I provided that for you, but you apparently disliked my analysis so much that you just decided to pretend I never said it. So, how powerful is an unamped full potential Scourge? Kit Fisto? Obi Wan? Yoda?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
My initial claim was that Revan Scourge isn't very impressive. The question of what he could become is only a tangential thought.

This entire thread is about how good Prime Scourge is. So, maybe think a little harder.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
And yes, potential =/= natural talent, which is why I made a very specific case for guessing his potential from his abilities in Revan. Did you ever respond to that specific case? No, you just ignored the connection between ability and potential I made and tried to lecture me on not seeing the difference. 🙄

I saw that you'd written a lot of stupid bullshit, which I didn't feel like bothering with, so I felt it'd be better to just stick to the important things. Scourge was a lightsaber prodigy who had 300 years to grow in. Even if Obi-Wan's "natural talent" surpasses his, Scourge had so much longer to improve in it's retarded to even compare them in this manner.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Can you provide me with the data points you use to quantify how much room he has to improve, rather than just vaguely saying "extremely significantly"? Because I provided that for you, but you apparently disliked my analysis so much that you just decided to pretend I never said it. So, how powerful is an unamped full potential Scourge? Kit Fisto? Obi Wan? Yoda?

You could read my post on page 1, maybe. It's not exactly difficult to figure out what "enormous/incredible potential" means. And we don't get mathematical equations for power potential handed to us from gods asscrack, so "extremely significantly" will have to do.

I disliked your analysis because it was insanely idiotic and didn't seem to understand that Revan Scourge being below Ki Adi Mundi doesn't matter in the ****ing least. Nor does how powerful unamped full potential Scourge is. Because we're only discussing amped full potential Scourge and I already gave my analysis for how powerful he'd be in the fifth post of the thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This entire thread is about how good Prime Scourge is. So, maybe think a little harder.

So? I was making a point slightly deviant from the OP. Oohhh, I'm such a maverick.

You could read my post on page 1, maybe. It's not exactly difficult to figure out what "enormous/incredible potential" means.

🙄

You still don't understand why "enormous/incredible potential" isn't a substantive answer to the question?

What does that even mean? Kit Fisto level? Palpatine level? Because both fit the bill of "enormous/incredible potential". The range of abilities that your vague, meaningless, substance-phobic descriptors could cover spreads wider than the ends of your mother.

------------------

Let me try to lead by example. So Revan Scourge considers himself inferior to the average dark council member, and is unremarkable and unrecognized within the empire. He's therefore likely below the likes of Qui Gon or AotC Obi Wan. However, we know that he was the most talented student in his graduating class and was able to best his lightsaber instructors as a student, and that he is a juyo master, and he's had time to grow since. So, he's probably above the likes of, say, Kanan (to mix continuities) or Sirak. I'd ballpark him at around the level of TPM Obi Wan (who is younger but also strong enough to hold his own against Darth Maul).

A full potential, unamped Scourge is almost certainly still below RotS Obi Wan (he's already Kenobi's age and has too much ground to cover). You could make a case for putting him on Qui Gon's level, but I doubt it. Qui Gon was one of the most legendary Jedi of the order and was stalemating a pre-prime Windu in sparring rounds. If Scourge were that powerful, somebody would have noticed - all we get is Revan just vaguely remarking that he has "enormous potential" (whatever that means). So I'd put him somewhat below Agen Kolar.

TOR Scourge is tougher to quantify. He's being amped by the Emperor, probably by a significant extent. Even the imperial guards are amped enough so that they go from being non-Force sensitive to intimidating sith lords, so it's likely that this + his natural potential + 300 years of experience puts him on Kenobi's level.

@ Eliminist

I haven't seen so much nonsense in one post. Honestly, it doesn't matter how old Xedrix was. No one ever claimed he is an amazing combatant. You just mentioned Scourge being afraid of taking on a Dark Council member. When you read the novel, you see that Scourge is still at an early stage of his career. He is foreign to Dark Council members and doesn't know how he'd fare against one. You're bringing this up when we have Scourge actually fighting 2 Dark Council members. I mean, why take that into account when you can analyze an actual fight? 😬

Like Neph said, in several occasions in the book, Scourge's POTENTIAL gets a mention. I don't care how much of his potential you think he already actualized. If the novel says he still had a significant portion of his potential unrealized, I'll take that + 300 years of actualizing that potential into account instead of your irrelevant opinions.

Originally posted by Nephthys

I disliked your analysis because it was insanely idiotic and didn't seem to understand that Revan Scourge being below Ki Adi Mundi doesn't matter in the ****ing least. Nor does how powerful unamped full potential Scourge is. Because we're only discussing amped full potential Scourge and I already gave my analysis for how powerful he'd be in the fifth post of the thread.

Yeah, no one's saying novel Scourge = Kenobi. That's just insipid. Not as insipid as comparing novel Scourge to ROTS Kenobi or Mundi to gauge SWTOR Scourge though. The main point I guess is that Scourge just had the chance to add so much to his natural potential. He fought and killed 1000 Sith and 100 Jedi. LOL @ these names being complete fodder since they were considered to be threats by Vitiate himself. Novel states that there is nothing weak about Scourge's potential and by the time we reach SWTOR, it is no surprise that Scourge reached Kenobi level even if he wouldn't be able to reach that level in a normal lifetime and with no amp. Vitiate had many really powerful Sith at his disposal. If Scourge was really not capable enough, Vitiate would've replaced him at some point in those 300 years and the fact that he survived the task for so long is a testimony to the combat prowess that his hype suggests.

Originally posted by Sinious
I haven't seen so much nonsense in one post. Honestly, it doesn't matter how old Xedrix was. No one ever claimed he is an amazing combatant. You just mentioned Scourge being afraid of taking on a Dark Council member.

Yes, which gives us a good barometer for his ability - he doesn't know if he has good odds of taking out a dark council member when that is the information given to him about Xedrix, .ie average power level of a dark council member > Scourge's.. That he happened to get a 90 year old doesn't really change the analysis, which is based on Scourge's odds against an average council member.

When you read the novel, you see that Scourge is still at an early stage of his career.

He's about as old as RotS Obi Wan, as I've pointed out before. This isn't really difficult information to synthesize, you know.

He is foreign to Dark Council members and doesn't know how he'd fare against one. You're bringing this up when we have Scourge actually fighting 2 Dark Council members. I mean, why take that into account when you can analyze an actual fight? 😬

Yeah, he got the left end of the dark council's ability curve to fight. That doesn't change my analysis at all, since it was based on Scourge's estimate of his abilities relative to the average dark council member. Unless if you think Scourge is really humble (😆) or something.

Like Neph said, in several occasions in the book, Scourge's POTENTIAL gets a mention. I don't care how much of his potential you think he already actualized. If the novel says he still had a significant portion of his potential unrealized, I'll take that + 300 years of actualizing that potential into account instead of your irrelevant opinions.

What makes you think his peak potential is all that impressive? Revan saying he has "incredible" potential could mean anything from Agen Kolar to Darth Sidious. But we know it probably isn't anywhere close to that, or else Scourge would've accomplished more as a trained-from-birth sith in his 30s.

Scourge just had the chance to add so much to his natural potential... it is no surprise that Scourge reached Kenobi level even if he wouldn't be able to reach that level in a normal lifetime and with no amp.

😕 This is literally what my position is; that unamped Scourge < Kenobi ~ amped Scourge. You just spent this entire post belittling my position...and then agreeing with it. Given that I had made my position explicit multiple times, I'm going to chalk this to reading comprehension problems.

Yeah its pretty clear I don't have novel Scourge @ Kenobi level. I'm disagreeing with some of the points you've made, not where you place the character. For example:

Dark Council members were hyped af in the Empire. Scourge hasn't even properly spent time on Dromund Kaas and was quite ignorant on such matters compared to some of the people he encountered on the planet. So his opinion is actually not that important. Also, you're making fun of the idea that a Sith can be humble but in this case Scourge is actually a very cautious and logical character and doesn't wank his talents like some other dark siders. In many cases, he admits inferiority in his thoughts or that he isn't above Meetra etc. I'm not surprised he was skeptical about blindly following orders when a manipulative DC member asked him to kill another DC member, especially since the DC member who was asking him of this was so clearly superior to Scourge. Your original point was that Scourge before ritual was afraid of taking on a DC member and in the context of your post that was a reason for him to be unimpressive. There are other factors that actually prove that he cannot take on high and arguably mid level DC members instead of the fact that he hesitated to take on Xedrix when he first heard of the objective in circumstances that would make most more hesitant than usual in the first place.

And your Kenobi / Scourge comparison is still not really a healthy one. There are different characters that explore their potentials in different timelines. Especially dark siders tend to grow a lot more in their old ages than lightsiders in most cases. Especially people like Scourge who went through an immortalizing ritual did not suffer from old age unlike characters like Kenobi. If there was still untouched potential left in Scourge to an extent where the likes of Revan would notice and praise, then I'm willing to believe that he still continued to naturally grow in power after for a long time. The critical part here is that the ritual didn't just amp him (in fact the novel never even explicitly mentions Scourge getting a concrete power boost in anyway), its that the ritual allowed him to reach that potential without any setbacks of old age but with endless practice (1100 Jedi/sith killstreak) + like x10 more time to actualize and perfect it than average force users.