Originally posted by operator616
Is completely exhausted after he exerts all his strength to push against Earth's inertia.Struggles against a freakin' shark, and exerts his full powers to stop it.
Marvel family admit that it would take them centuries to move all the worlds/stars in the galaxy.
http://imgur.com/sCXqaUN
http://imgur.com/ez46LI0Marvel family completely exhausted after pushing back the iceberg.
Marvel family have also struggled to push back a regular ship from what i recall, as well as fully exhausted after being subjected to some pressure from the boiler. More-so, i remember CM being vulnerable to telepathy and his strength has been ineffective a number of times. Mostly he never faced powerful menaces but there was the occasional space creatures like the space dragon whom CM wasn't able to destroy no matter how hard he tried and eventually destroyed him with an atomic bomb iirc. I remember all those but couldn't pinpoint the issues, so maybe ill search for them later on. This should be enough though. The whole marvel family is nowhere near Tyrant.
In the first, it doesn't say that he's using all his strength and the only time reference given for how long he sustains the feat is "endless hours". Sustaining any amount of strength continuously over time can be absolutely exhausting. Just pick up a 10 pound weight and hold your arm straight out for 10 minutes to see what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that such a thing means he could take Tyrant, but according to you such a thing is an average portrayel rather than a high end feat and if such is the case it does denote a CRAZY amount of power. Crazy enough that depending on his high end feats I'd say he actually has the potential to win this one or at least make it hard fought for T.
And in the second scan, from the look of things it's the discarded inner being exerting his full powers to stop Cap Marvel, not Captain Mavel exerting his full powers to stop the shark.
Originally posted by h1a8
Move planets, rearrange galaxies, effortlessly destroy planets, move dead stars, etc.Or is that Silver age from whiz comics?
The marvel family by their own admission couldn't rearrange a galaxy, among other things i mentioned. And im failing to see how planet or star level feats are relevant when he's going against Tyrant. Who has CM actually beaten to suggest that he's even in Tyrant's league?
It's the golden age. The particular scans are from Captain Marvel Adventures and Marvel family books.
Originally posted by darthgooberIn the first, it doesn't say that he's using all his strength and the only time reference given for how long he sustains the feat is "endless hours". Sustaining any amount of strength continuously over time can be absolutely exhausting. Just pick up a 10 pound weight and hold your arm straight out for 10 minutes to see what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that such a thing means he could take Tyrant, but according to you such a thing is an average portrayel rather than a high end feat and if such is the case it does denote a CRAZY amount of power. Crazy enough that depending on his high end feats I'd say he actually has the potential to win this one or at least make it hard fought for T.
Except that it's pretty well known that CM has the "limitless stamina" of atlas. I could post an instance where he holds a building or some such "for endless hours" and is completely inexhausted. What does that tell you? It clearly implies a strength and a stamina limit. It's because a building is nothing for him. But an entire planet, is not.
Anyway, is this more to your liking?
As i said, there is more where this comes from.
Also, i don't remember CM beating anyone who is on tyrant's level. In fact, the occasional super-powered beings (who are nowhere near Tyrant, mind you) whom CM encountered, he wasn't very effective against them.
Originally posted by darthgoober
And in the second scan, from the look of things it's the discarded inner being exerting his full powers to stop Cap Marvel, not Captain Mavel exerting his full powers to stop the shark.
Right. I remembered the shark instance but didn't re-read the issue, i recall that the instincts were literally reflecting his own thoughts so i didn't pay attention. Either way, you'll see that there was a "vigorous" battle, so...
Originally posted by operator616
Except that it's pretty well known that CM has the "limitless stamina" of atlas. I could post an instance where he holds a building or some such "for endless hours" and is completely inexhausted. What does that tell you? It clearly implies a strength and a stamina limit. It's because a building is nothing for him. But an entire planet, is not.Anyway, is this more to your liking?
As i said, there is more where this comes from.
Also, i don't remember CM beating anyone who is on tyrant's level. In fact, the occasional super-powered beings (who are nowhere near Tyrant, mind you) whom CM encountered, he wasn't very effective against them.
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm in no way try to support that CM's strength/stamina is actually unlimited. I was just pointing out that when you examine the feat it's actually pretty impressive and if that kind of thing qualifies as being in the realm of "average" for him then I'd say he's in the trans tier at least. I mean guys like Thor and Supes have crazy feats like that too, but those are their high end stuff, not the average.
I know literally nothing about Golden Age Cap so I honestly can't comment on him overall from any kind of first hand knowledge. I was simply extrapolating based off the feat presented and your comment. That's why I said the outcome would depend on what qualified as high end for him.
Originally posted by operator616
Right. I remembered the shark instance but didn't re-read the issue, i recall that the instincts were literally reflecting his own thoughts so i didn't pay attention. Either way, you'll see that there was a "vigorous" battle, so...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm in no way try to support that CM's strength/stamina is actually unlimited. I was just pointing out that when you examine the feat it's actually pretty impressive and if that kind of thing qualifies as being in the realm of "average" for him then I'd say he's in the trans tier at least. I mean guys like Thor and Supes have crazy feats like that too, but those are their high end stuff, not the average.
Yes it's his average. He has also fairly easily split worlds in half. He's definitely in the trans tier and above Thor/Superman in these type of feats, but he doesn't have the combat showings either. For instance he has stalemated Mr Atom who basically "only" has the power of a nuclear reactor, he even commented that he was using his full strength when fighting with him. Same thing with Oggar. Yet people here would let me believe that he could stand up against Tyrant.
Originally posted by operator616
Yes it's his average. He has also fairly easily split worlds in half. He's definitely in the trans tier and above Thor/Superman in these type of feats, but he doesn't have the combat showings either. For instance he has stalemated Mr Atom who basically "only" has the power of a nuclear reactor, he even commented that he was using his full strength when fighting with him. Same thing with Oggar. Yet people here would let me believe that he could stand up against Tyrant.
The somewhat less powerful Tyrant that we actually saw certainly seemed powerful, but to say that he definitively blows away someone with feats like Golden Age CM seems to have on his resume would be a bit of a stretch IMO.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Well then it would depend on which version of Tyrant we're talking about. "Full Power" Tyrant is something of a theoretical character because we never actually saw that guy on panel. Yes if we take his description at face value then he was a truely awesome being but on KMC the standard is to be at least somewhat skeptical of characters who have only off panel feats.The somewhat less powerful Tyrant that we actually saw certainly seemed powerful, but to say that he definitively blows away someone with feats like Golden Age CM seems to have on his resume would be a bit of a stretch IMO.
I don't think so. The somewhat less powerful Tyrant which you mentioned was gradually absorbing power for all those eons, and even stated that he is at the "peak" of his power from what i recall. Also, he handled the heralds fairly easily as well as managed to own Galactus. And remember Galactus basically had the advantage in that fight since he just fed on a world, and eveytime Galactus feeds on a world, this only makes Tyrant weaker. More-so, combat showings seemed to indicate that CM has no chance against Tyrant.
Originally posted by operator616
I don't think so. The somewhat less powerful Tyrant which you mentioned was gradually absorbing power for all those eons, and even stated that he is at the "peak" of his power from what i recall. Also, he handled the heralds fairly easily as well as managed to own Galactus. And remember Galactus basically had the advantage in that fight since he just fed on a world, and eveytime Galactus feeds on a world, this only makes Tyrant weaker. More-so, combat showings seemed to indicate that CM has no chance against Tyrant.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but if we credit the Tyrant we actually saw as being stronger than ever then it throws serious skeptisim on the description of his confrontation with Galactus eons ago because there was no where near that kind of power output exhibeted. So it could very well be that the massive amount of collarteral damage done had to do with prepped traps from both, all kinds of tech that they no longer have, or any number of other things.
Well, even in their second encounter (after the original, many eons ago), Tyrant and Galactus did avoid conflict due to the very fact that they would do untold amounts of damage.
Although the fact that Tyrant is shown as being Galactus' peer is the real highlight of his showings, more-so than the collateral damage their fight would produce, imo.
comparing eras like this never works and really probably shouldn't even be allowed in these versus match ups. i've had the discussion many times regarding both cap marvel and superman, as well as black adam. things like 'invulnerability' and even strength were defined by completely different standards, and limits changed with the need for story far more back then than they did now. story telling and internal consistency mean way more now than they ever did then, and as a result you have wildly fluctuating extremes for those old time characters, and utterly nonsensical showings that can't be compared fairly with today, when fans demand a much more logical approach to story telling. the villains are far more grand now, the situations more thought out.
operator is exactly right in what he's been saying. it's impossible to compare these characters because EVERYTHING is different now. how can you discuss someone who is invulnerable one moment, can move planets and struggles with a shark. purely story driven powers. even feats dont matter because they were viewed differently then, not fully thought out like many of today's are. cm never fought anyone close to tyrant and we can't simply take cm's feats at face value because of the illogical, and cartoonish nature of those feats.
apples and oranges.
(but tyrant wins, no doubt)
Originally posted by operator616
Well, even in their second encounter (after the original, many eons ago), Tyrant and Galactus did avoid conflict due to the very fact that they would do untold amounts of damage.Although the fact that Tyrant is shown as being Galactus' peer is the real highlight of his showings, more-so than the collateral damage their fight would produce, imo.
In my opinion, Tyrant is far too much for Captain Marvel to deal with. Tyrant's lows would be Captain Marvel's highs. Tyrant's highs would be Captain Marvel's pipe dream. The difference between the two is immeasurable, and it would take teams of Captain Marvel level characters to take on Tyrant. It's just the way that Tyrant was portrayed from the beginning til his end. I just can't imagine any writer ever making a character of Captain Marvel's level (Gladiator for example) a threat to a well fed Galactus. Pretty ridiculous right?
Originally posted by leonidas
comparing eras like this never works and really probably shouldn't even be allowed in these versus match ups. i've had the discussion many times regarding both cap marvel and superman, as well as black adam. things like 'invulnerability' and even strength were defined by completely different standards, and limits changed with the need for story far more back then than they did now. story telling and internal consistency mean way more now than they ever did then, and as a result you have wildly fluctuating extremes for those old time characters, and utterly nonsensical showings that can't be compared fairly with today, when fans demand a much more logical approach to story telling. the villains are far more grand now, the situations more thought out.operator is exactly right in what he's been saying. it's impossible to compare these characters because EVERYTHING is different now. how can you discuss someone who is invulnerable one moment, can move planets and struggles with a shark. purely story driven powers. even feats dont matter because they were viewed differently then, not fully thought out like many of today's are. cm never fought anyone close to tyrant and we can't simply take cm's feats at face value because of the illogical, and cartoonish nature of those feats.
apples and oranges.
(but tyrant wins, no doubt)
👆
Originally posted by darthgoober
See I agree with what you're saying about the importance of collateral damage in principle, but Galactus's showings are just SO variable that being portrayed as his "peer" in such a limited engagement isn't really all that telling. I do believe that it's impressive, but I can't personally give it too much credit in the overall scheme of things. I absolutely think it justifies saying he'd whip the Hell out of Supes, Thor, or Surfer... but beyond that kind of general sense of placement it just doesn't seem right to treat his level of power as something that's definately nailed down. High Heralds can rise to the rank of Trans or even Skyfather on occasion, therefor Trans should theoretically be able to rise to the rank of skyfather or low abstract. IMO the guy would need one or two more productive showings to really justify me giving him the credit in my mind that you seem to be wanting to. And I'm not saying that you're "wrong" for giving him that kind of credit, I'm just saying that I can understand why some might consider this to be a valid matchup.
I honestly have to say that i disagree. First of all, what do you mean that Galactus' showings vary? Im not sure i follow you here. Galactus has been consistently written as a god-like cosmic being, and was even portrayed on par with abstracts at times. He's legitimately above trans or even skyfather tiers.
Tyrant has been consistently shown to be Galactus' peer. Not once, but throughout all his (rather limited) appearances, so why should we treat him anything other that? This is not your regular case of a being who shines by standing up to someone above his tier. We know for a fact that Tyrant has been consistently written to be Galactus-level. Surfer may have a win against Mephisto, but on the other hand, he's been matched and beaten by Morg, Ronan, Karnak, Medusa, runner, super skrull, legacy, and many others, so we know were he stands on average. Tyrant's case is completely different, his average portrayal is Galactus-tier.