ROTJ Luke runs a gauntlet

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your question made no sense... Pull what from the force?

I stated that Anakin was superior as a Jedi as an overall fighter. I also stated that despite Anakin's youth and style his main reason for defeating Dooku was because of his superior connection to the force which allowed him to overcome Dooku's mastery of the force. You do not seem to agree with this assessment which if memory serves me correctly is back up by the novel.

You attribute Anakin's style, youth, and the fact the Dooku was old and testing Anakin initially as his factors for losing. While they may be factors they are not the main reason for Dooku' lost which is my focus.

My question was how was Anakin's superior force connection such a factor in Dooku's battle but not in his battle with Obi Wan? Anakin should have been getting stronger while Obi Wan was weakening. It never happened.

My answer to that is that Anakin conflict prevented him from calling upon the force in the same manner that he was able to against Dooku.

That is why I say that an untrained sith who is conflicted cannot be a superior fighter to an trained and non conflicted Jedi.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Lets go back to the original point. You made the point that Anakin was a superior fighter as a sith, correct? You are not just saying that his skills increase a duelist but as an overall fighter Anakin is superior as a Sith? Correct, me if I am wrong.

I stated that Anakin was superior as a Jedi as an overall fighter. I also stated that despite Anakin's youth and style his main reason for defeating Dooku was because of his superior connection to the force which allowed him to overcome Dooku's mastery of the force. You do not seem to agree with this assessment which if memory serves me correctly is back up by the novel.

You attribute Anakin's style, youth, and the fact the Dooku was old and testing Anakin initially as his factors for losing. While they may be factors they are not the main reason for Dooku' lost which is my focus.

My question was how was Anakin's superior force connection such a factor in Dooku's battle but not in his battle with Obi Wan? Anakin should have been getting stronger while Obi Wan was weakening. It never happened.

My answer to that is that Anakin conflict prevented him from calling upon the force in the same manner that he was able to against Dooku.

That is why I say that an untrained sith who is conflicted cannot be a superior fighter to an trained and non conflicted Jedi.

That was never stated in the movie, ever, that Anakin won do to his superior connection to the force. In fact, I don't even recall that being mentioned in the book. So I'm unclear how you think something is a bigger factor that wasn't mentioned, over something that was mentioned? The facts I brought up were all mentioned, and clearly so.

What I'm saying is, Anakin was stated to be a 9 as a duelist when becoming a Sith. You can say whatever you want about this or that, but that is what was stated by people way more in charge and in the know than us. You can read whatever you want into that, but it's a fact none the less.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That was never stated in the movie, ever, that Anakin won do to his superior connection to the force. In fact, I don't even recall that being mentioned in the book. So I'm unclear how you think something is a bigger factor that wasn't mentioned, over something that was mentioned? The facts I brought up were all mentioned, and clearly so.

What I'm saying is, Anakin was stated to be a 9 as a duelist when becoming a Sith. You can say whatever you want about this or that, but that is what was stated by people way more in charge and in the know than us. You can read whatever you want into that, but it's a fact none the less.

The movie doesn't say Anakin was 8 then 9 duelist either. So keep viewing/reading whatever commentaries you want to. If a 9 duelist means Anakin is a better overall fighter in your definition then so be it dude.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If the movie doesn't display Anakin letting go and using his anger (according to you) and the book doesn't say that Anakin did so either allowing himself to tap into his force potential (I will check the novel but the movie is self explanatory) then there is no reasoning with you at all.

The movie doesn't say Anakin was 8 then 9 duelist either. So keep viewing/reading whatever commentaries you want to. If a 9 duelist means Anakin is a better overall fighter in your definition then so be it dude.

Stop continuing to move the goalposts. Your question was about force reserves and whether him calling on those extra reserves compared to DOoku allowed him to win. No, that was never mentioned any place. Now you switch it, and say was it Anakin letting go and using his anger... Those are COMPLETELY different things you're now acting like it's the same thing.... odd. And you say there's no reasoning with me lol

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Stop continuing to move the goalposts. Your question was about force reserves and whether him calling on those extra reserves compared to DOoku allowed him to win. No, that was never mentioned any place. Now you switch it, and say was it Anakin letting go and using his anger... Those are COMPLETELY different things you're now acting like it's the same thing.... odd. And you say there's no reasoning with me lol

So when Obi Wan fought Maul in TPM , Luke fought Vader, Anakin fought Dooku, Rey fought Kylo Ren, they all just got anger and did not call upon the force? LOL.

It is a fact and stated in the movies that Anakin has the highest ability to call and pull from the force (or giving him the most force reserves).

It is stated in the movies all of them with multiple quotes showing that emotions affect your ability to call upon the force. Dooku, Vader, Kylo Ren, all urged their combatants to let go and use their emotions to fuel their power in the force (which means calling upon the force). This is stated and shown visually.

The movie never says that Dooku got tired but you want to take outside quotes and apply them when it fits your argument. You are too stuck on outside quotes that contradict the movies. If that is the case why won’t you just watch the commentary instead of the movies.

Nothing I've mentioned contradicts the movie. That just it, and that bothers you it seems.

Again, I don't think you understand how it works. Just because you get angry doesn't mean you have more force reserves at your disposal. You seem to be claiming that is how it works, and it certainly doesn't work that way. Your force potential is always your force potential. Your reserves are always your reserves, regardless if you're happy or angry. All the emotions do for you, is allow you to use the force in slightly different ways. It might allow you to go for the kill for example, while you might normally not.

Go watch Dooku's fight with Anakin the first time. He's VISIBLY tired after that encounter, and that was a weaker version of Anakin. Now imagine a stronger version and a longer fight... yeah Dooku was tired and it completely fits with the character.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nothing I've mentioned contradicts the movie. That just it, and that bothers you it seems.

Again, I don't think you understand how it works. Just because you get angry doesn't mean you have more force reserves at your disposal. You seem to be claiming that is how it works, and it certainly doesn't work that way. Your force potential is always your force potential. Your reserves are always your reserves, regardless if you're happy or angry. All the emotions do for you, is allow you to use the force in slightly different ways. It might allow you to go for the kill for example, while you might normally not.

Go watch Dooku's fight with Anakin the first time. He's VISIBLY tired after that encounter, and that was a weaker version of Anakin. Now imagine a stronger version and a longer fight... yeah Dooku was tired and it completely fits with the character.

There are many contradictions in Star Wars however, I took purely from the movies and what I stated in consistent within the lore of Star Wars movies and I provided examples.

The examples I provided clearly shows that emotions do play a part and allowed the user to call on the force to make them stronger, faster, etc.

I really do not see how you just ignore what happen in Dooku's and Anakin's battle. Anakin overpowered Dooku. He did not win off of skill or mastery of the force, he simply overpowered Dooku. He did this after Dooku told him he has anger and hate but does not use them.

Every other example the person became stronger and faster than their enemies. The movies back up my argument quite well.

@KuRuPT Thanosi

I have to add on more thing. You keep saying that emotions allow them to use for force differently without describing how it affects the attributes of the person who is using the force.

Could anyone force user have beaten Dooku since he was tired as you say? Anakin use the force in a way that made his strength and speed to much for Dooku to handle. Same with Luke and Vader and others.

Anakin was not able to do so against Obi Wan a fight that lasted much longer. There was plenty of time for Obi Wan's defense to be broken in that fight. Your explanation of why he couldn't is not supported by anything within the movies or lore of Stars Wars.

That is why you refer to outside quotes.

Originally posted by Kotor3
We are just not going to agree here. You are talking about force users where the force is not a factor. Does not make any sense at all. Next is I understand canon quite well and movies are the highest form.

There are many contradictions in Star Wars however, I took purely from the movies and what I stated in consistent within the lore of Star Wars movies and I provided examples.

The examples I provided clearly shows that emotions do play a part and allowed the user to call on the force to make them stronger, faster, etc.

I really do not see how you just ignore what happen in Dooku's and Anakin's battle. Anakin overpowered Dooku. He did not win off of skill or mastery of the force, he simply overpowered Dooku. He did this after Dooku told him he has anger and hate but does not use them.

Every other example the person became stronger and faster than their enemies. The movies back up my argument quite well.

What on God's Green Earth are you talking about here. You're literally all over the place, and making little to no sense. Again, NO, just because you're angrier IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM MEANS YOU HAVE MORE FORCE RESERVES OR MORE FORCE POTENTIAL. You need to get this part through your head. Those are a static constant amount, they do not vary on your emotional state.

What DOES very, is how you fight and the things you might do in a fight. Just like it would for any normal human. If somebody kills your daughter, you might fight that person different than if somebody cuts you off. If you're depressed or scared, you might fight tentatively and have your focus clouded. Anger for a Jedi is the same for a human. That is why they are so worried about emotions like anger, fear etc etc because they can lead you down the dark path. When those things are controlling your state of mind, you're much more vulnerable to making rash illogical bad choices. However, in no way does getting angrier give your more force reserves or force potential. You need to understand these concepts before we can continue any discussion.

Yes I know Anakin overpowered him, I said that, I'm the one who brought that up. You said it was because of his force reserves, and that was only a minor factor. The main factors were that Dooku underestimated Anakin, Dooku stamina was already taxed from having to fight Anakin and Kenobi, Dooku was merely testing Anakin at first (not going for the kill) and lastly Dooku's style is susceptible to power strikes.. which again, is what Anakin's style is. These factors were laid out very clearly in the book and not one ounce of contradiction in the movie. Thus they are canon.

The reality is this, Kenobi is younger and had a style that was better suited to a prolonged battle than Dooku. You're also forgetting that another reason Kenobi was able to do better was because he trained Anakin for God's sake. He knew his moves in and out and his tendencies. It is really that simple

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What on God's Green Earth are you talking about here. You're literally all over the place, and making little to no sense. Again, NO, just because you're angrier IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM MEANS YOU HAVE MORE FORCE RESERVES OR MORE FORCE POTENTIAL. You need to get this part through your head. Those are a static constant amount, they do not vary on your emotional state.

What DOES very, is how you fight and the things you might do in a fight. Just like it would for any normal human. If somebody kills your daughter, you might fight that person different than if somebody cuts you off. If you're depressed or scared, you might fight tentatively and have your focus clouded. Anger for a Jedi is the same for a human. That is why they are so worried about emotions like anger, fear etc etc because they can lead you down the dark path. When those things are controlling your state of mind, you're much more vulnerable to making rash illogical bad choices. However, in no way does getting angrier give your more force reserves or force potential. You need to understand these concepts before we can continue any discussion.

Yes I know Anakin overpowered him, I said that, I'm the one who brought that up. You said it was because of his force reserves, and that was only a minor factor. The main factors were that Dooku underestimated Anakin, Dooku stamina was already taxed from having to fight Anakin and Kenobi, Dooku was merely testing Anakin at first (not going for the kill) and lastly Dooku's style is susceptible to power strikes.. which again, is what Anakin's style is. These factors were laid out very clearly in the book and not one ounce of contradiction in the movie. Thus they are canon.

The reality is this, Kenobi is younger and had a style that was better suited to a prolonged battle than Dooku. You're also forgetting that another reason Kenobi was able to do better was because he trained Anakin for God's sake. He knew his moves in and out and his tendencies. It is really that simple

I even went back to see if I made a typo. I used the words call or pull from. I've stated that emotions allows ones to call upon the force not gain more force potential. I stated this in plain English.

So once again in plain English for the last time. Anakin's emotions allowed him to call upon the force to increase his speed and strength to a point in which Dooku's mastery of the force became irrelevant and he was simply overpowered. Anakin was able to accomplish this because his force connection to the force is so much higher than Dooku's.

Unlike the Dooku fight Anakin was not in control of his emotions. He was very conflicted. Even though Anakin has a much higher connection to the force than Obi Wan he was not able to increase his attributes in the same way due to the fact that he was so conflicted emotionally.

Examples in Stars Wars that support this, Vader vs Luke. Kylo Ren vs Rey.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Now I understand the issue here. Reading comprehension or you are not taking the time to read my responses. Where do I say that anger gives you more force reserves?

I even went back to see if I made a typo. I used the words call or pull from. I've stated that emotions allows ones to call upon the force not gain more force potential. I stated this in plain English.

So once again in plain English for the last time. Anakin's emotions allowed him to call upon the force to increase his speed and strength to a point in which Dooku's mastery of the force became irrelevant and he was simply overpowered. Anakin was able to accomplish this because his force connection to the force is so much higher than Dooku's.

Unlike the Dooku fight Anakin was not in control of his emotions. He was very conflicted. Even though Anakin has a much higher connection to the force than Obi Wan he was not able to increase his attributes in the same way due to the fact that he was so conflicted emotionally.

Examples in Stars Wars that support this, Vader vs Luke. Kylo Ren vs Rey.

It's you who is not making any sense at all. NO, getting angrier doesn't allow you to call upon any more force than if you weren't. That is what you're not getting here. Anakin has a static amount of force running through him at ALL times. He isn't able to call up on MORE force just because he's angrier. Doesn't work that way. He has the same amount of force running through him when he's happy as he does when he's angry. Being angrier doesn't allow you to suddenly have more force to call upon. I have no idea where you are getting this false idea from. What anger does is allow you to FIGHT DIFFERENTLY and use powers that were forbidden by the Jedi. It's not that they can't do it, you can see yoda is casually able to redirect Dooku and Sids lighting as well as absorb it. They just aren't allowed to use such powers or train to use them. Make no mistake though, the power is in them to do so. It always is.

You seem to think being angrier gives you more force to call upon and that simply isn't true. You have the same amount of reserves to call upon regardless of your emotional state. Your ability to call upon them will vary because of many factors but they are the same.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's you who is not making any sense at all. NO, getting angrier doesn't allow you to call upon any more force than if you weren't. That is what you're not getting here. Anakin has a static amount of force running through him at ALL times. He isn't able to call up on MORE force just because he's angrier. Doesn't work that way. He has the same amount of force running through him when he's happy as he does when he's angry. Being angrier doesn't allow you to suddenly have more force to call upon. I have no idea where you are getting this false idea from. What anger does is allow you to FIGHT DIFFERENTLY and use powers that were forbidden by the Jedi. It's not that they can't do it, you can see yoda is casually able to redirect Dooku and Sids lighting as well as absorb it. They just aren't allowed to use such powers or train to use them. Make no mistake though, the power is in them to do so. It always is.

You seem to think being angrier gives you more force to call upon and that simply isn't true. You have the same amount of reserves to call upon regardless of your emotional state. Your ability to call upon them will vary because of many factors but they are the same.

Your example is so incorrect. Yoda casually redirected Dooku's lightning. He could do so because not only is his connection to the force superior to Dooku's but also his mastery of the force. Against Sidious, Yoda could barely contain his lightning and had to focus.

How you are not able to see that is why you cannot understand my point.

When does force sensitive mean you have a static amount of force in you? Where do you get that from? There is the force and your connection to it and how well you use it and the amount of force you can use. That is dependent on your connection and mastery of the force.

You example means absolutely nothing though. It made no point. All that matters is your midi-chlorians that are running through your body. Some have more running through them than others. Thus their connection to the force is stronger the more you have. That is why Anakin was the chosen one, he had the most recorded. Which again is the point. HE HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF THOSE RUNNING THROUGH HIS BODY AT ALL TIMES. He doesn't suddenly get more because he's angrier. Just like Kenobi has the same amount at all times. It's a static number. You emotional state affects how you fight or things you might do in a fight. It doesn't increase your connection to the force. Learn these concepts, understand them.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You example means absolutely nothing though. It made no point. All that matters is your midi-chlorians that are running through your body. Some have more running through them than others. Thus their connection to the force is stronger the more you have. That is why Anakin was the chosen one, he had the most recorded. Which again is the point. HE HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF THOSE RUNNING THROUGH HIS BODY AT ALL TIMES. He doesn't suddenly get more because he's angrier. Just like Kenobi has the same amount at all times. It's a static number. You emotional state affects how you fight or things you might do in a fight. It doesn't increase your connection to the force. Learn these concepts, understand them.

Mid-chlorians represent one thing and that is how strong your connection to the living force is. The more you have the stronger your connection and ability to manipulate the force. What is so hard to understand? Mid-chlorians allows one to tap in the energy within the living force. The more you have the more energy you can tap into.

Anakin has the ability to tap into and gain access to more energy within the living force than another being to have ever existed. In the right frame of mind he can do this at anytime. Training allows him to do so at will and manipulate the force in different ways.

Darkside feeds off negative emotions. Your frame of mind (emotions) affect your ability to access the energy within the living force. This is all star wars 1.0.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Now I understand the issue here. Reading comprehension or you are not taking the time to read my responses. Where do I say that anger gives you more force reserves?

I even went back to see if I made a typo. I used the words call or pull from. I've stated that emotions allows ones to call upon the force not gain more force potential. I stated this in plain English.

So once again in plain English for the last time. Anakin's emotions allowed him to call upon the force to increase his speed and strength to a point in which Dooku's mastery of the force became irrelevant and he was simply overpowered. Anakin was able to accomplish this because his force connection to the force is so much higher than Dooku's.

Unlike the Dooku fight Anakin was not in control of his emotions. He was very conflicted. Even though Anakin has a much higher connection to the force than Obi Wan he was not able to increase his attributes in the same way due to the fact that he was so conflicted emotionally.

Examples in Stars Wars that support this, Vader vs Luke. Kylo Ren vs Rey.

You said this. YOU SAID HIS EMOTIONS ALLOWED HIM TO CALL UPON THE FORCE TO INCREASE HIS SPEED AND STRENGTH. What you're not understanding is, he can still increase his speed and strength WITHOUT being angry or emotional. HE ALWAYS HAS THAT ABILITY, no matter his emotional state. What is so hard about all this. Anakin has a static amount of Midi-Chlorians in him at all times. Thus he can increase them when happy as well. You seem to think him being angry somehow gives him more access to speed and strength and that simply isn't true.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You said this. YOU SAID HIS EMOTIONS ALLOWED HIM TO CALL UPON THE FORCE TO INCREASE HIS SPEED AND STRENGTH. What you're not understanding is, he can still increase his speed and strength WITHOUT being angry or emotional. HE ALWAYS HAS THAT ABILITY, no matter his emotional state. What is so hard about all this. Anakin has a static amount of Midi-Chlorians in him at all times. Thus he can increase them when happy as well. You seem to think him being angry somehow gives him more access to speed and strength and that simply isn't true.

Luke gave in to anger (an emotion) and fueled the darkside of the force (his frame of mind allowed him to access the energies from the force to enhance his strength and speed). That is what allowed him a short human to overpower an larger armored cyborg.

Granted, Luke could use the force to due the same with out using anger but he would still have to use an emotion.

That's the thing.. .you don't need emotions to access the force. You can just access it. Think about it, what emotions was Yoda calling upon when he casually redirected Dooku's lighting. Or when he casually TK'd Dooku's object tosses? He's as calm and cool and collected as you could be. Yet he was still able to access the force with zero issue.

The issue here is, you think a force user can only access the force via emotions, and that isn't true at all. They can access it regardless of their emotions. They don't have more available to them just because they are angry. Doesn't work that way and you seem to believe it does. So that is the first issue we are dealing with here.

There are numerous examples of this.... Luke in his first experience with the force.... as a noob he blocked the robotic blaster fire while blindfolded... what emotions was he using there? Same when Kenobi casually says "these aren't the droids we're looking for" when he TP'd the troopers. What emotions was there? Kenobi is another one who fights calm cool and collected... yet he can still access the force and use super speed as he pleases.

There are countless examples of this. The only thing emotions does is change how you fight and it may open up some forbidden techniques for a Jedi they don't train with. It's still there though, regardless of their emotional state.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's the thing.. .you don't need emotions to access the force. You can just access it. Think about it, what emotions was Yoda calling upon when he casually redirected Dooku's lighting. Or when he casually TK'd Dooku's object tosses? He's as calm and cool and collected as you could be. Yet he was still able to access the force with zero issue.

The issue here is, you think a force user can only access the force via emotions, and that isn't true at all. They can access it regardless of their emotions. They don't have more available to them just because they are angry. Doesn't work that way and you seem to believe it does. So that is the first issue we are dealing with here.

There are numerous examples of this.... Luke in his first experience with the force.... as a noob he blocked the robotic blaster fire while blindfolded... what emotions was he using there? Same when Kenobi casually says "these aren't the droids we're looking for" when he TP'd the troopers. What emotions was there? Kenobi is another one who fights calm cool and collected... yet he can still access the force and use super speed as he pleases.

There are countless examples of this. The only thing emotions does is change how you fight and it may open up some forbidden techniques for a Jedi they don't train with. It's still there though, regardless of their emotional state.

Definition - A natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others. Instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge.

Emotions is often intertwined with mood, temperament, personality, disposition, and motivation.

Without going deeper into the meaning of emotions base on the definition, Yoda was definitely using emotions. His motivation, mood, disposition, and the circumstances, was to save his friends and capture Dooku. Emotions (care, love, worry, etc)

Luke, to learn the force and not be shot. When Luke was lifting up the ship he did not believe in his self which Yoda stated was the reason he did not succeed. Jedi are not Vulcans. Emotions are always used.