Originally posted by The EllimistI see your point, but gravity is still a factor here. If this feat had taken place with gravity the freighter's weight would have increased exponentially, meaning Kyp would have had to expend energy just to grip and lift it, whereas in this case it being weightless, he could put all his power into accelerating the object.
I think you're putting too much on the space-thing. Even without having to work against an Earth-like gravitational field, he'd still have to accelerate the freighter by a respectable margin for it to function as a ramming weapon.
How slow could he have been accelerating it? It must have been moving at a speed comparable to a starfighter for it to not just get shot down or laughed at, and it slams into the basal with enough velocity to shove singularities, lol. He's probably accelerating it faster than the 9.8 m/s^2 of Earth's surface gravitational field, given that otherwise it would only be moving at like 300 m/s after thirty seconds of constant force from Kyp, which would make it less energetic than large modern day ordinances (9 gigajoules or so of KE) if the freighter weighs around 100 tons, let alone anything that could make singularities collapse, and would be moving slow enough to be easily shot down or avoided (or even outright outpaced). This means that his feat is [b]vastly more impressive than lifting a freighter on the Earth's surface would be, and frankly nobody has ever done something like that without a nexus (Nihilus).Really? You seriously think it was accelerating at starfighter speeds?More realistically, if the freighter's final speed is like 13 km/s after 30 seconds (still conservative given that this would make it about as energetic as Hiroshima given 100 tons -> mass term cancels out anyway, let alone something that could overwhelm singularities), Kyp is applying enough force to lift something like forty four freighters, and doing an exponential amount of work.[/b]
I'm seeing no indication of that in the text. If that were the case how were the fighters able to reach the coralskipper, cut off its escape and harry for some time before the freighter collided?
If it were travelling that fast, surely a collision would have been far more immediate.
I also feel equating dovin basals to actually singularities to be a little absurd, its space magic, and as if a coralskipper (which is just the Vong equivalent of a starfighter, though it was larger than average) would have enough power to generate anything close to an actual black hole.
Pulling down, or rather directing already falling, star destroyers doesn't strike me as intuitively more impressive; if it's falling for like 20 seconds, you can nudge it by 1 m/s^2 and it'll already crash roughly 200 meters away.He altered the direction of an object infinitely greater in mass, and it was falling for much more than 20 seconds. 😬
Luke actually uses a device to measure his abilities. Kyp was considered as a candidate for the next sith lord by Lumiya; he was the only non-Skywalker mentioned. And as I explained, it's more reasonable to suggest that he and Skywalker has some basis to make their claims rather than both of them being literally delusional; Kyp is likely more powerful than what he sees restrained Skywalker doing. That's fairly reasonable given that he actually pulls off the dovin basal feat with less effort than Luke (who is granted seemingly out of practice in the early Vong war given his exhaustion at fighting like three Vong warriors vs. later soloing thousands).I never said Luke was delusional, merely that his claim is vague and he only equates Kyp with Vader, he doesn't put him above him. Kyp is on the other hand, yes, is being pretty delusional, as if he were anywhere near Luke Skywalker at that point.
And I find power scaling the feat with Luke to be extremely problematic, as it would leave Kyp far greater than Darth Caedus, discrepancies like that being par for course in that series.
Specifically, it shoves the singularities together. That implies that the freighter is moving pretty ridiculously fast, given that these singularities have to mass at least multiple super star destroyers.Huh? Where does it shove the singularities together?
Spirit Kun is outright stated to be pretty drastically below his mortal incarnation.No, at that particular point, he is stated to be "very powerful". Not that Dooku isn't 'drastically' beneath Darth Vader, he is, Vader was already much more powerful than him as of RotS.
No, it's made pretty clear that Luke was overwhelmed by a combination of the esoteric Force abilities, spirit Kun's raw power, and Kyp's own efforts. But I would factor having esoteric Force abilities into one's mastery of the Force anyway.Right, and Bane's helplessness against Zannah's sorcery gives you an idea of just how potent that esoteric advantage would have been, sorcery is intrinsically very difficult to defend against.
Huh?After he was reborn, Krayt experienced a significant growth in power.
By precedent corporeal Murr should be stronger.Perhaps? But unlike other spirits Muur had his talisman to sustain his essence, and Celeste Morne to feed his power. It's not unreasonable to assume he got stronger over four millennia.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I see your point, but gravity is still a factor here. If this feat had taken place with gravity the freighter's weight would have increased exponentially, meaning Kyp would have had to expend energy just to grip and lift it, whereas in this case it being weightless, he could put all his power into accelerating the object.
I know. What I'm saying is that it's only less impressive than lifting on Earth's surface if he's accelerating it at less than 9.8 m/s^2, and he clearly isn't, or else the freighter would make a pretty useless, slow weapon.
Really? You seriously think it was accelerating at starfighter speeds?I'm seeing no indication of that in the text. If that were the case how were the fighters able to reach the coralskipper, cut off its escape and harry for some time before the freighter collided?
If it were travelling that fast, surely a collision would have been far more immediate.
We don't know how far away the freighter starts, how fast the coralskipper is moving, or any of those variables. We just know that the freighter is moving fast enough to tag a starfighter and not get shot down, despite having already been mission-killed and ergo being otherwise easy prey. The starfighters "cutting off" the coralskipper's escape doesn't mean that it's literally sitting there in space.
I also feel equating dovin basals to actually singularities to be a little absurd, its space magic, and as if a coralskipper (which is just the Vong equivalent of a starfighter, though it was larger than average) would have enough power to generate anything close to an actual black hole.
I've had this discussion about physics and Star Wars with Neph in another thread, and I don't really want to repeat it here, so I'll just drop this point, except to point out that it powerscales him with Luke.
He altered the direction of an object infinitely greater in mass, and it was falling for much more than 20 seconds. 😬
LOL, the fact that it was falling for longer makes the feat easier.
I never said Luke was delusional, merely that his claim is vague and he only equates Kyp with Vader, he doesn't put him above him.
Nah, Luke's quote wasn't about Vader, it's about Kyp potentially becoming the greatest Jedi.
Kyp is on the other hand, yes, is being pretty delusional, as if he were anywhere near Luke Skywalker at that point.
This logic seems conveniently circular, and ignores the point that Kyp actually does the feat with greater ease than Luke.
And I find power scaling the feat with Luke to be extremely problematic, as it would leave Kyp far greater than Darth Caedus, discrepancies like that being par for course in that series.
How does it put him far above Caedus? Caedus's showings are against a more powerful Luke, and early NJO Luke =/= end of NJO Luke.
Huh? Where does it shove the singularities together?
The end of the quote.
No, at that particular point, he is stated to be "very powerful". Not that Dooku isn't 'drastically' beneath Darth Vader, he is, Vader was already much more powerful than him as of RotS.
No, AP literally emailed the author and got confirmation that flesh Exar is stronger.
Yeah, it's a value judgment to compare spirit Exar to flesh Exar and how that gap translates to putting him above Vader. Seeing as how I think even two Vaders should be hard pressed against post-DE Luke, I think flesh Exar > Vader is more likely than not, since it's stated that Exar can only access "some" of his powers through Kyp, .ie flesh Exar potentially > spirit Exar + Kyp > JA Luke.
Right, and Bane's helplessness against Zannah's sorcery gives you an idea of just how potent that esoteric advantage would have been, sorcery is intrinsically very difficult to defend against.
Yes, but the text mentions that esoteric sorcery as a component of Luke's defeat, and again, I don't see why I shouldn't factor said sorcery into the rankings.
After he was reborn, Krayt experienced a significant growth in power.
Correct, hence why I don't put Murr above Vader, although Murr seems to think himself above pre-prime Vader.
Perhaps? But unlike other spirits Muur had his talisman to sustain his essence, and Celeste Morne to feed his power. It's not unreasonable to assume he got stronger over four millennia.
You could say the same thing about Exar Kun and Yavin IV's nexus, and yet he's still weaker than he was living.
One small note, Luke is stated to be getting better constantly, after DE Luke becomes a lot more conservative with his powers, 'cause Dark Side n shit, that is kinda Luke's developmrnt in Specters of the Past, getting over his fear.
That conservative mindset doesn't bare any relevance in Luke's loss to Kun however, given it is stated that Luke tried absolutely every defensive measure he knew at full strength and everything he did was useless.
Originally posted by AncientPower
One small note, Luke is stated to be getting better constantly, after DE Luke becomes a lot more conservative with his powers, 'cause Dark Side n shit, that is kinda Luke's developmrnt in Specters of the Past, getting over his fear.That conservative mindset doesn't bare any relevance in Luke's loss to Kun however, given it is stated that Luke tried absolutely every defensive measure he knew at full strength and everything he did was useless.
Fair enough. I do think it's a little difficult to determine Exar Kun's power from this; he does blindside Luke from behind/around him, Luke can't really hit Exar back, Luke has never seen tendrils before, he's fighting Kun on three sides and then Kyp on the other, Kyp is being powered by Kun and amped by Yavin's nexus, etc.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. The only one who takes you seriously around here is Neph. While I don't impugn your character, you're honestly one of the worst debaters I've ever seen.
They took me seriously here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=624980&pagenumber=5
...And failed to prove Savage Opress > Darth Malak. Power-scaling did the trick.
Why I even bother responding to your statements. You are not going to debate, just take jabs. Not worth it.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
They were both listed as 4/5. Unless if you were literally referring to Plagueis's being physically placed above him on your computer screen, you're wrong.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which ones, Legend? I just asked you to produce these sources, not to assert that they exist.
Valkorion have superior showings then those of Yoda in the domains of Telepathy, Force Concealment, Alter Environment and Defensive Applications. Valkorion is also a match for Yoda in the domain of Telekinesis via power-scaling. Furthermore, Valkorion have superior showings then those of Palpatine in the domains of Force Lightning, Sith Sorcery and Force Drain (another method to determine his superiority over Yoda). Valkorion also have superior combat showings then Yoda.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorion can perform rituals and draw on nexuses and other people's energies to do things for him; he has never ragdolled control ships and levitated portions of mountains on his own power. But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!
Vitiate didn't drew on other people's energies to do things for him; he siphoned their energy to become more powerful with passage of time. This is not a negative for Vitiate in any sense. His showings are representative of his raw power, not that of others.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
he has never ragdolled control ships and levitated portions of mountains on his own power. But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!
Darth Nihilus affected a Starship (Ravager) with his telekinetic powers.
Darth Jadus affected a Starship (Harrower-class) with his telekinetic powers as well.
By virtue of power-scaling, Vitiate can affect those vessels and then some.
And when did Yoda ever levitate portions of mountains? Provide evidence.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
But ooohhh, he can oneshot Darth Marr!
Originally posted by The Ellimist
A comparison of feats is a "pointless dick measuring" comparison, of course, unless if Legend is the one doing it. But then what do you want to use? Accolades? We both know how much you hate those, given that they put Sidious above Vitiate. So what do you want to use, exactly, if it isn't feats, and it isn't accolades?
You perceive feats-wars as a meaningless exercise. Yet, you make statements such as:
And when Valkorion can match Yoda's OCW feats on his own power, let me know.
When Revan can TK star destroyers and disintegrate frigates on his own power, let me know.
Double-standards much?
I use everything at my disposal to make a case for a character such as accolades, feats, assessment of capabilities of character's opponents and power-scaling. I also apply common sense to plug some loopholes. This approach enables me to draw accurate inferences. I used to argue that Revan was a powerful Force-user 'before' the novel came out and SWTOR related events occurred; a time when some fans used to assert in debates that Revan may have used guns and grenades to defeat Darth Malak on Star Forge.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
No, because they're both extremely powerful Force users with comparable feats.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Is this really your analysis? That Galen having better feats than Revan doesn't matter, and that we should instead use...what, exactly?
2. Revan was also able to use both the Light and Dark Sides simultaneously to attain oneness-like state and unleash his strongest powers in this manner. He was able to affect even Vitiate in this manner. Galen Marek have nothing on this.
3. Revan sent an entire Strike Team packing across the arena with a wave of energy. Galen Marek have nothing on this.
4. Revan is also stated to have greater command of the Force then everybody whom Meetra Surik had interacted with during her life and the list includes Darth Traya, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus. Galen Marek does not outgun them in showings.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader's equal showing is affecting Galen Marek, and Palpatine goes without saying. Revan has no such showing, ergo he is inferior.Do you realize how pointless and nihilistic your rebuttal is? You're literally saying "Galen has better feats and showings than Revan, but that doesn't matter! Revan is better because I say so!" 😆
See above
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your completely ignoring my arguments to the contrary because you couldn't understand them (lol) aside, Luke Skywalker's inheritance of Anakin's potential is a huge f*cking plot point of the entire saga, roflamo. As Lucas himself puts it, Luke could have become what Anakin never did, someone more powerful than Palpatine. That's a far more meaningful accolade than any of the BS that you can pull about your own favorite character.
Luke Skywalker did not inherit potential equivalent to that of Anakin Skywalker. Otherwise, he would have become as powerful as the Father by FOTJ.
It is implied that Luke Skywalker had the potential to surpass Palpatine but you forgot one thing: George Lucas talks only about canon incarnations of his characters. He doesn't considers EU based incarnations. So Luke Skywalker could become more powerful then Palpatine (ROTJ) at maximum. Big deal.
Valkorion >> Palpatine (ROTJ)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you can tell me how manipulating singularities,
Originally posted by The Ellimist
defeating thousands of Vong,
Originally posted by The Ellimist
cloaking capital ships,
Originally posted by The Ellimist
rendering oneself literally immovable,
Originally posted by The Ellimist
TK'ing a guy with the Force potential of an entire colony of billions,
Originally posted by The Ellimist
and pinning a guy more powerful than Darth Vader to his chair
Valkorion one-shotted Arcann.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
without gesturing pales in comparison to your favorite farmer-torturer, you're going to have to provide actual feats and then comparative analysis rather than your continued vague objections about how awesome Valkorion is.
01. One-shotting an entire Dark Council
02. Altering the environment of planet Dromund Kaas
03. Successfully completing a ritual that killed 8000 Sith Lords and everybody else on the planet
04. Creating a nexus of Dark Side energy
05. Defeating the duo of battle-hardened Revan and Malak without even a gesture
06. Overwhelming a Jedi Strike Team comprising of some of the most powerful Jedi of the Order
07. Telepathically influencing countless individuals on planet Ziost (including many Jedi Masters, Sith and battle-hardened soldiers)
08. Repelling Lightsaber-strikes with bear hands
09. Eliminating scores of Knights of Zakuul and Skytroopers with a wave of Dark Side energy by manipulating time-and-space continuum
10. Downing scores of Starships with a Force Lightning Storm
11. One-shotting powerful Force-users such as Arcann and Darth Marr
12. Creating Voice and Children and concealing the presence of all Children from the Jedi Order for decades while attending to other matters through Voice; one of the greatest examples of multi-tasking
13. Creating beings of pure Dark Side energy through sheer force of will; beings that were nearly impossible to kill
14. Killing a world with an expression of Force Drain (a showing that requires nearly an entire Jedi Order to pull off)
Originally posted by The EllimistWhy would it be useless? Even if travelling at a "slow" speed it still weighs in excess of a hundred tonnes, that's going to do some damage if it collides head on with a starfighter.
I know. What I'm saying is that it's only less impressive than lifting on Earth's surface if he's accelerating it at less than 9.8 m/s^2, and he clearly isn't, or else the freighter would make a pretty useless, slow weapon.
Regardless, I wasn't given the impression that Kyp was attempting to destroy the target, just overwhelm its dovin basals with a mass beyond its capacity to absorb.
We don't know how far away the freighter starts, how fast the coralskipper is moving, or any of those variables. We just know that the freighter is moving fast enough to tag a starfighter and not get shot down, despite having already been mission-killed and ergo being otherwise easy prey. The starfighters "cutting off" the coralskipper's escape doesn't mean that it's literally sitting there in space.It got close enough for Kyp's fighters to give immediate support when intact, and close enough for Kyp to reach out grip it. Nothing suggests it was particularly far away.
LOL, the fact that it was falling for longer makes the feat easier.OK, we are still dealing with an object weighing like hundreds of thousands of tonnes.
Nah, Luke's quote wasn't about Vader, it's about Kyp potentially becoming the greatest Jedi.But unless he surpassed Luke or Jacen (which he didn't) that really doesn't justify placement above anyone here.
This logic seems conveniently circular, and ignores the point that Kyp actually does the feat with greater ease than Luke.It's posited on Kyp's lack total lack Luke-tier showings besides, and the fact that the likes of a young Jaina are a match for him in combat. He just isn't on that level.
How does it put him far above Caedus? Caedus's showings are against a more powerful Luke, and early NJO Luke =/= end of NJO Luke.Because 15 years later he TKed Caedus with unprecedented ease, and accounting for that gap in power and/or mentality only suggests at that stage he might have otherwise exerted himself.
So if Kyp is even remotely close to "early NJO Luke", he should still largely shit on Caedus.
And frankly, if you take stock in what Kyp is saying, why isn't he much higher? I not seeing many people on that list who come remotely close to Luke.
The end of the quote.It says the basals deliberately fold in on each other, to accommodate for the object's mass.
No, AP literally emailed the author and got confirmation that flesh Exar is stronger.Right, but that's not what you claimed, you claimed that Exar Kun was drastically less powerful in spirit form, whereas in that instance, he was actually "very powerful."Yeah, it's a value judgment to compare spirit Exar to flesh Exar and how that gap translates to putting him above Vader. Seeing as how I think even two Vaders should be hard pressed against post-DE Luke, I think flesh Exar > Vader is more likely than not, since it's stated that Exar can only access "some" of his powers through Kyp, .ie flesh Exar potentially > spirit Exar + Kyp > JA Luke.
Noting that even if he was a pinch away from his true power, Anderson's statement would still hold true.
And cool, in your opinion. Frankly I think two Vader's would handily defeat post-DE Luke. If he were unarmed and they had sorcery, they'd probably obliterate him.
And I've already articulated my issues with that last line of reasoning elsewhere, I won't repeat myself, not really interested in getting into that debate.
Yes, but the text mentions that esoteric sorcery as a component of Luke's defeat, and again, I don't see why I shouldn't factor said sorcery into the rankings.Indeed, and given it's potency I'd imagine that component was quite considerable. The fact that is highlighted as a component only suggesting it's of note.
And no it shouldn't, but sorcery remains intrinsically more potent that standard attacks, nor does Luke have any knowledge of how to defend against those kinds of powers. Don't ignore that.
Correct, hence why I don't put Murr above Vader, although Murr seems to think himself above pre-prime Vader.Cool, he's not above prime Krayt either.
You could say the same thing about Exar Kun and Yavin IV's nexus, and yet he's still weaker than he was living.Not exactly, seeing as Yavin 4 declined in DS strength over those four millennia. The Muur Talisman was purpose built to contain and sustain his essence, and he had Morne besides.
A more accurate comparison would be Kun's steady return to power with Kyp in his clutches.
Regardless Kun did go from being trapped and utterly powerless, to having a level of freedom and being able to effect the environment in profound ways, so he did get stronger.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
4/5 implies that you do not dismiss the possibility of Darth Plagueis being above Valkorion.
Good. You should never dismiss possibilities.
And that your default assumption is Darth Plagueis > Valkorion.
That was not implied, even if it's true.
Valkorion have superior showings then those of Yoda in Defensive Applications.
I have my doubts about this.
Valkorion is also a match for Yoda in the domain of Telekinesis via power-scaling.
Not really, although it can honestly be assumed that he's comparable just by virtue of his power at this point.
was also able to use both the Light and Dark Sides simultaneously to attain oneness-like state and unleash his strongest powers in this manner. He was able to affect even Vitiate in this manner. Galen Marek have nothing on this.
Wait... So your argument is, "Vitiate is powerful because he can affect Revan, who is powerful because he can affect Vitiate?" Circular logic.
Where it is stated that UnuThul had the Force-potential of an entire colony of billions of Killiks?
Well, he's bonded with the populations of 375 Killik nests; that's the source of his power. The number of Kiliks per nest is unconfirmed, but saying that there were "thousands" per nest is still probably too low by a large degree.
I can calculate the orbalisk feat when I'm a little less lazy.
I don't see why Drew's opinion on publisher's summaries should apply to those of other authors. Regardless, it's not like the ones in question that I'm using, mainly that Caedus > Vader and Plagueis was the most powerful sith to his time in history, are that difficult to believe. Only the latter invokes significant controversy because it implies Plagueis > Vitiate (I'm pretty sure both Sidious and Plagueis expressed this belief in the novel).