Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, it's not like Dooku kept mentioning how powerful and magnificent Andeddu's holocron is and it's not like there's a canonical statement that says the same holocron that Bane found basic gave him power... oh wait.
Or conversely, maybe Dooku was able to glean things from the holocron that Bane couldn't. 😬
It has to be noticeable enough for the apprentice to regularly best the master in combat, since that happens, not always but frequently enough. And in every iteration we see the gap seems to be noticeable, .ie Plagueis is noticeably stronger than Tenebrous, and Plagueis is noticeably weaker than Sidious.
Tbh I think Plagueis and Sidious were special cases. Tenebrous was like Vader level based off of feats and then we get a massive spike in Plagueis and then Sidious.
I don't know though you might be right because the apprentices never seem to be at their prime when they beat their masters like with Zannah as well ( though of course there were circumstances to that one ). I wish we had more material on the RoT line.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It has to be noticeable enough for the apprentice to regularly best the master in combat, since that happens, not always but frequently enough. And in every iteration we see the gap seems to be noticeable, .ie Plagueis is noticeably stronger than Tenebrous, and Plagueis is noticeably weaker than Sidious.
Yeah because Zannah was so much stronger than Bane. And Cognus's greatest strength, her foresight and power dampening ability, absolutely required her to be more powerful than Zannah to win.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah because Zannah was so much stronger than Bane.
Seeing as how she won a TP battle against Bane and was likely before her prime, she probably was. She just wasn't as good of a duelist.
And Cognus's greatest strength, her foresight and power dampening ability, absolutely required her to be more powerful than Zannah to win.
That's not mutually exclusive from her being stronger, lol. And regardless of how the apprentice wins, each generation is successively more capable on the aggregate, and that adds up.
It was a contest of will, not power.
But your argument was that it requires them to be stronger to kill their master. Obviously it doesn't since esoteric abilities don't require that. We should also acknowledge that although the would become stronger, Sidious and Plagueis killed their masters without power being an issue. Backstabbing and surprise are just as possible as direct conflict.
V Not what he was saying tho.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously it doesn't since esoteric abilities don't require that.
Like I said, the more relevant issue to this thread is that each apprentice has to be better in overall combative ability than their master, and this aggregates.
We should also acknowledge that although the would become stronger, Sidious and Plagueis killed their masters without power being an issue. Backstabbing and surprise are just as possible as direct conflict.
Yes, it doesn't always happen that way, but it happens frequently enough for it to add up. And Sidious and Plagueis are interesting examples - they didn't kill their masters in direct combat but were still noticeably more powerful in their primes.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
My only problem with Bane > Dooku is that the gap between Sidious and Dooku would have to be absolutely monstrously large to accompany 30 generations of Banite sith between them, seeing that Bane is the weakest of the line.
Gravid may have destroyed sets of arcane knowledge, but it's still corroborated thrice that every successive Banite sith was stronger than the last - and indeed, Gravid lost to his apprentice.
The Sidious >>>>>>>> Dooku theory is fine, except that Yoda vs. Dooku in AotC doesn't really give that impression, not when the novelization describes Yoda absorbing his second lightning blast "far from easily".
Eh, that novel is sketchy to me, tbh. There's been several sources that say Yoda has actually deflected Dooku's lightning easily, and just dueling an actually all-out Yoda for a short time in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous made Dooku be completely exhausted, yet Yoda was fine. Take not: this was a substantial Dark Side Nexus.
Possibly it was that Yoda either hasn't blocked Force Lightning with his hands by then (having no Sith to fight) or at least not for hundreds of years. It is an advanced technique. Despite how powerful Luke is he still underperforms the first time he really uses a technique before seriousing up later. He almost drained himself conjuring an illusion of a ship in Dark Nest, a few years later he was fooling Caedus with visions of fleets only he could see.