Originally posted by NewGuy01
You really need to free yourself from CV cancer, Syn. My cancer is better an quality.
I like you alot NG. Ur like that wise 20 something year old that's got everything figured out.
Also I don't even go on CV much anymore. I just do it when my confidence is low so that all the noobs on there can boost it admiring the reputation that I don't even know how I got.
I like you alot NG. Ur like that wise 20 something year old that's got everything figured out.
Although in reality I'm only negligibly older than Ant. Tempest actually fits that description much more accurately.
Also I don't even go on CV much anymore. I just do it when my confidence is low so that all the noobs on there can boost it admiring the reputation that I don't even know how I got
Yep, that's why Ant focuses on Comicvine. He can barely function without its ego-boost these days.
Darth Bane wins this fight if we're arguing feats, and even the RoT scaling is kind of a wash when you consider that even in TCW Darth Bane was used in a sorcery vision by freaking Darth Sidious as a way to scare Yoda. Obviously that isn't any concrete indicator of power, but it does indicate that Bane is a freaking badass. And even Sidious considers Bane as one of his most powerful predecessors. Plus there's the whole Bane is more powerful/masterful in the dark side than any sith that came before him. If the RoT Sith did straight up get more powerful in the force generation by generation, it shouldn't have been by all too much. Not that Venamis should even be wanked by the RoT scaling, he was kinda getting raped by pre prime Plagueis; if memory serves Plagueis barely even tried in that fight and per narrator statement could have ended it any time he wanted with the force.
I guess the question is this: did Venamis receive enough benefit from his RoT training, and did he show himself comparable enough to Plagueis to suggest he's beyond Bane?
I'm inclined to think yes, just because of how far along the Banite line he was, how well trained by Tenny he seemed to be, and because on a purely physical level he was up there with Plagueis, which represents Force Augmentation, which in turn (DMB, brace yourself) suggests a high degree of Force mastery and potency.
So we know he has the power, and we know he has the training (preparing to release a "storm" of lightning on Plagy doesn't hurt) I see no reason why we can't infer he's better than Bane.
If anything it'd be a compliment to Bane if invalid apprentices of his line can surpass him. 🙂
Well for your post:
1. The feats/powerscaling from feats of others you mentioned don't do anything to change my own argument. We both agree Bane wins via feats.
2. Bane's accolades/inferences of being badass are cool, but they again don't preclude the idea that Venamis is his better. You're arguing a different point altogether which might be "who has more renown in Sith history".
3. To my knowledge that's all horseshit. It was a life or death duel where Plagueis was injured early on. It is said he drew out the duel, frustratingly so, when he realized Venamis could counter his every move instinctively, due to the fact Tenebrous not only trained him in Plagueis' form, but also the way he fights as an individual. But by drawing out the duel, and making it seem more like back and forth sparring than a deadly contest, Venamis sacrificed finesse for aggression, overextended, and paid the price for it.
It's for that reason I don't understand why people suggest Plagueis or even Venamis have no legitimate dueling hype. Venamis even being slightly scaled off Bane, if not outright, is a seriously deadly fighter, and adding on that he knew absolutely everything there is to know about how Plagueis fights? The fact Plagueis not only forced a stalemate but beat Venamis in the end suggests, to me at least, he's one of the most adroit duelists you can discuss in Star Wars. And this was well before his peak in Force connection which, as DMB knows, dictates the effectiveness of your dueling abilities, and all Force related activities you train in.
Good, very good. Someone who actually puts up some goddamn resistance. 🙂
1. Yeah.
2. Alot of it kind of does preclude the idea that Venamis is Bane's superior. On implication/hype, he's the most powerful and masterful sith lord in galactic history up till his time, which would put him above the likes of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and even Emperor Vitiate. And Sidious straight up said that Bane and 4 others were his most powerful predecessors, not most renown. Point being that Bane, as the Sith'ari, is implied to be a being of both immense power and renown. If Venamis fits any of these bills, feel free to address why.
3. Really? Because I swear a remember a statement indicating that Plagueis could have quickly ended the contest with the force if he wished to, or at least the contest in general.
4. I wouldn't say outright, as Venamis would inevitably end up holding a similar function to Dooku and Maul. There's a reason Plagueis disposed of/experimented on him. And of course I agree that Plagueis is absolutely one of the most able duelists in the mythos, and by extension Venamis but...so is Bane. He was butchering a legitimate technical mastermind in Kas'im prior to the latter pulling out jar'kai, and Bane became infinitely more powerful and skilled after that to the point where acts he thought were impossible with the blade, (deflecting thunderstorm rain) became a daily routine for him.
2. Alot of it kind of does preclude the idea that Venamis is Bane's superior. On implication/hype, he's the most powerful and masterful sith lord in galactic history up till his time, which would put him above the likes of Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and even Emperor Vitiate. And Sidious straight up said that Bane and 4 others were his most powerful predecessors, not most renown. Point being that Bane, as the Sith'ari, is implied to be a being of both immense power and renown. If Venamis fits any of these bills, feel free to address why.The underlined part is what you need to pay attention to. Venamis didn't exist at that point.
The publisher's summary says Malgus, Bane, Talzin, Plagueis and Sorzus are Sidious' 5 most powerful predecessors.
On the other hand, pretty much every other source in Star Wars, which aren't created by the publisher, concludes that each successive Sith in Bane's line became more powerful and knowledgeable in the Dark Side than their master. Other explicit sources conclude that Vitiate is better than Malgus and Sorzus. So while the five of them are clearly among Sidious' most powerful predecessors, they aren't a strict top 5, thus you can't exclude Venamis by principle.
Ergo, none of it applies to Venamis. This, however?
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.-Revenge of the SithThey had become new.
I find that to be quite compelling given that Venamis was trained extensively at the end of this thousand year line by none other than one of Bane's most powerful and experienced successors. Trained so extensively that he could shield his Dark Side alignment from Plagueis himself, and sufficiently that Tenebrous awarded him the Darth title (the title in of itself means shit, but it suggests Tenebrous took no half-measures in training him).
“I knew I could draw you out, Darth Plagueis,” the Bith said.-Darth PlagueisPlagueis dropped all pretence and faced him squarely. “You’re well trained. I sensed the Force in you, but not the dark side.”
“I’ve Darth Tenebrous to thank for it.”
“He made you in his image. You’re a product of Bith science.”
The Bith laughed harshly. “You’re an old fool. He found and trained me.”
Plagueis recalled the warning Tenebrous had nearly given voice to before he died. “He took you as an apprentice?”
"I am Darth Venamis."
So from what we know, Venamis was indeed pretty badass. Though it's clear he doesn't fully benefit from the RoT scaling, and interestingly enough Plagueis speculates that Venamis would have done well in Bane's era. Also what's important to note is that Tenebrous and Plagueis were at odds in regards to the Sith's future for decades, and at that time they were both looking for Force sensitive acolytes to help them, which is presumably around the time Tenebrous found and began training Venamis.
Blood analysis had revealed a high midi-chlorian count, which to Plagueis was further indication that a being could have great potential in the Force and yet still be inept [ngl I find this funny since it implies Plagueis finds Bane inept as a Sith].-Darth Plagueis
[...]
An investigation of the ship had yielded data that might have surprised even Darth Tenebrous, who had provided the ship. It seemed that well before he had confronted Plagueis or learned of his Master’s fate, Venamis himself had been scouting for potential apprentices. Plagueis could not help being impressed, though begrudgingly. The young Bith would have done well in Bane’s era. Now, however, he was an anachronism, and by extension, Tenebrous also. That Tenebrous had targeted him came as no shock to Plagueis. He and the Bith had reached an impasse decades earlier regarding execution of the Sith imperative.
[...]
He had assumed that, given time, he would have been able to win Tenebrous over, but his former Master had obviously pronounced him unfit to don the mantle of Sith successor, and had looked elsewhere. The unbridled desires of sentients were a blessing to the Sith, for those desires birthed an abundance of zealous and audacious beings who could be used to further the cause. Plagueis had been instructed to be on the lookout for suitable beings, just as Tenebrous had been when he had discovered Venamis.
I think based on what we have, Venamis is at least as strong as Bane, possibly stronger, and he didn't reach his full potential.
4. I wouldn't say outright, as Venamis would inevitably end up holding a similar function to Dooku and Maul. There's a reason Plagueis disposed of/experimented on him. And of course I agree that Plagueis is absolutely one of the most able duelists in the mythos, and by extension Venamis but...so is Bane. He was butchering a legitimate technical mastermind in Kas'im prior to the latter pulling out jar'kai, and Bane became infinitely more powerful and skilled after that to the point where acts he thought were impossible with the blade, (deflecting thunderstorm rain) became a daily routine for him.Yes, Kas'im's awesome, but he's barely a footnote as far as RoT Sith go. I don't think beating him really helps an argument against Venamis who, by merit of his training and shown power, should be capable of utterly molesting the Sith battlemaster.