Originally posted by playa1258
The MCU is vastly overrated. Civil War sucked ass. Fantastic Four was better.
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Spoiler:
are you blind and deaf or simply retarded?
Originally posted by Scoobless
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Spoiler:
are you blind and deaf or simply retarded?
¿por qué no los tres
Before answering these questions. Let discuss both plans.
1) Lex orchestrated Africa incident to start negative conversations about Superman. It started conversations about Superman in government offices to media. It's benefit to Lex- It gave red alerts to government, put doubt against Superman in people's mind and give Lex more power to experiment on Kryptonian tech and more importantelly license to transport kryptonite to country ( We know it not went as He intended thanks to Senate Finch).
2) Create bad buzz about Batman in Superman's prospective. It rise tension between Superman and Batman
3) Lex know that Bruce investigating Lex so Lex invited Bruce on party and gave a fake window to Bruce so that He can manipulate what information to provide.
4.1) Manipulate Wallace into filing case against Superman and bomb building. From Clark, Bruce and most people's prospective, Wallace hated Superman and file case and when Superman arrived He do blast to kill Superman. Benefit to Lex- Kill everyone who have doubt against Lex and potential witness, it temporarily disband community which supervise kryptonian ship and Superman affairs so Lex get chance to do unsupervised experiment in ship, it divert whole media and government's attention to Superman And main benefit in next step.
4.2) Send latters to Bruce on name of Wallace. From Bruce's prospective Wallace hated Superman and This bombing was a last resort of Wallace to kill Superman. It push Bruce from egde. Lex had everything in place, from kryptonite to full unsupervised control to kryptonian ship. So Lex manipulate Bruce to fast track this plan to kill Superman. Bruce realized that people dying so He have to do it quickly.
5) Lex kidnap Martha and Lois to make Superman kill Bruce.
This was his whole initial plan. Doomsday get involved because of Lex's curiosity about technology. When He learned about Doomsday. He create him as failsafe. He was crazy. He prefer world destruction over losing.( I already write long post and This is whole another long discussion)
Now on Zemo,
When we first meet Zemo. He had some crucial information about Avengers, Hydra and shield. Most likely He know that Captain and Bucky aka Winter Soldier are childhood friend. When He torture hydra soldier. He was asking about December 16th 1991 specifically. Why? That day Tony's parents die. If Zemo was intrested in that day from start, It means that Zemo known about murder of Tony's parents but had no proof. So Trying to find proof. Another person who know about that day was Bucky. But for Zemo capturing Bucky was not easy. So He framed Bucky in a bombing. When Bucky get captured, He infiltrate building in disguise and interrogate Bucky and found information about that day and Travel to Hydra base to find video proof.
Zemo's plan - 1) frame Bucky so that He can interrogate Bucky after government catch him.
2). Disguise and interrogate Bucky to Find information about hydra base and death of Starks.
3) Find proof and show these proofs to Tony and hope that Tony try to take revenge on Bucky and Steve try to save Bucky. it break bond between Tony and Steve.
He had no idea about Sokovia accords and tension between Avengers. He had no plan to put Avengers against each other before showing proof of Tony's parents murder. He incidentally break Avengers.
Now observe difference between complexity of both plan. Lex control everything from start. He knew what about to happen in every big moment pre Batman Superman fight. On other hand Zemo had no idea about most of things happening in movie. He incidentally put things in motion, INCIDENTALLY. So In my opinions It's unfair to compare both plans.
Anyway Here is my answer,
1) Lex's every step works perfectly but his initial plan fail at last step but Doomsday works as failsafe.
Zemo's plan works, It put Steve and Tony against each other at climax. But it was influence by many outside factors. About them He had no idea.
2) It's difficult to separate effect of Zemo's plan and Sokovia accords. Sokovia accords effect overshadowe Zemo's plan.
Lex's plan will have negative effects. He want to kill Superman but It kick start Justice league.
Tony and Steve going to stay at odd for longer time over Bucky.
3) Lex, Superman was holding back at start, He always do but Batman was going all out on Superman. In Civil war, Tony was going against Bucky and Captain was getting in way. They were not against each other.
4) Both play parents card good. Zemo to make Tony angry and Lex to blackmail Superman.
Originally posted by Grewal59
Before answering these questions. Let discuss both plans.1) Lex orchestrated Africa incident to start negative conversations about Superman. It started conversations about Superman in government offices to media. It's benefit to Lex- It gave red alerts to government, put doubt against Superman in people's mind and give Lex more power to experiment on Kryptonian tech and more importantelly license to transport kryptonite to country ( We know it not went as He intended thanks to Senate Finch).
2) Create bad buzz about Batman in Superman's prospective. It rise tension between Superman and Batman
3) Lex know that Bruce investigating Lex so Lex invited Bruce on party and gave a fake window to Bruce so that He can manipulate what information to provide.
4.1) Manipulate Wallace into filing case against Superman and bomb building. From Clark, Bruce and most people's prospective, Wallace hated Superman and file case and when Superman arrived He do blast to kill Superman. Benefit to Lex- Kill everyone who have doubt against Lex and potential witness, it temporarily disband community which supervise kryptonian ship and Superman affairs so Lex get chance to do unsupervised experiment in ship, it divert whole media and government's attention to Superman And main benefit in next step.
4.2) Send latters to Bruce on name of Wallace. From Bruce's prospective Wallace hated Superman and This bombing was a last resort of Wallace to kill Superman. It push Bruce from egde. Lex had everything in place, from kryptonite to full unsupervised control to kryptonian ship. So Lex manipulate Bruce to fast track this plan to kill Superman. Bruce realized that people dying so He have to do it quickly.5) Lex kidnap Martha and Lois to make Superman kill Bruce.
This was his whole initial plan. Doomsday get involved because of Lex's curiosity about technology. When He learned about Doomsday. He create him as failsafe. He was crazy. He prefer world destruction over losing.( I already write long post and This is whole another long discussion)
Now on Zemo,
When we first meet Zemo. He had some crucial information about Avengers, Hydra and shield. Most likely He know that Captain and Bucky aka Winter Soldier are childhood friend. When He torture hydra soldier. He was asking about December 16th 1991 specifically. Why? That day Tony's parents die. If Zemo was intrested in that day from start, It means that Zemo known about murder of Tony's parents but had no proof. So Trying to find proof. Another person who know about that day was Bucky. But for Zemo capturing Bucky was not easy. So He framed Bucky in a bombing. When Bucky get captured, He infiltrate building in disguise and interrogate Bucky and found information about that day and Travel to Hydra base to find video proof.
Zemo's plan - 1) frame Bucky so that He can interrogate Bucky after government catch him.
2). Disguise and interrogate Bucky to Find information about hydra base and death of Starks.
3) Find proof and show these proofs to Tony and hope that Tony try to take revenge on Bucky and Steve try to save Bucky. it break bond between Tony and Steve.He had no idea about Sokovia accords and tension between Avengers. He had no plan to put Avengers against each other before showing proof of Tony's parents murder. He incidentally break Avengers.
Now observe difference between complexity of both plan. Lex control everything from start. He knew what about to happen in every big moment pre Batman Superman fight. On other hand Zemo had no idea about most of things happening in movie. He incidentally put things in motion, INCIDENTALLY. So In my opinions It's unfair to compare both plans.
Anyway Here is my answer,
1) Lex's every step works perfectly but his initial plan fail at last step but Doomsday works as failsafe.
Zemo's plan works, It put Steve and Tony against each other at climax. But it was influence by many outside factors. About them He had no idea.2) It's difficult to separate effect of Zemo's plan and Sokovia accords. Sokovia accords effect overshadowe Zemo's plan.
Lex's plan will have negative effects. He want to kill Superman but It kick start Justice league.
Tony and Steve going to stay at odd for longer time over Bucky.3) Lex, Superman was holding back at start, He always do but Batman was going all out on Superman. In Civil war, Tony was going against Bucky and Captain was getting in way. They were not against each other.
4) Both play parents card good. Zemo to make Tony angry and Lex to blackmail Superman.
The only reason Lex's plans even had a chance at working is because Superman and Batman acted like idiots. The incident in Africa could have easily been explained if Superman had just spoken in public about his side. If Batman had done his research better he'd know that Superman was a good person with a mom named Martha. In fact, Luthor had to stoop to blackmail to even get Superman and Batman fighting, something which Superman could have easily avoided if he didn't palm thrust Batman before talking to him properly.
Zemo on the otherhand had to manipulate the Avengers from behind the scenes, and that's a far harder thing to do. He got them to fight without having to force then to it. And the conflict that he sowed is not something that was resolved by the end of the movie.
Originally posted by FrothByte
If Batman had done his research better he'd know that Superman was a good person with a mom named Martha.
Well to be fair, Superman did an excellent job at hiding his origins. The only people that knew who he really was were himself and his mom. And The entire town of Smallville Kansas. Also he told the General he was from Kansas. And Lex found out but Lex is a super genius with billions at his disposal so of course he could find out........And Lois found out fairly easily after interviewing like 3 people......
Zemo on all 4, sans maybe 2.
Addressing question #2:
- Zemo created a rift between Tony and Steve that will carry over to Infinity War, but we see that Tony has the ability to communicate with Steve's Secret Avengers via burner phone.
- Luthor's actions resulted in the "death" of Superman, the government creating Task Force X/Suicide Squad for metahuman threats, and the call to Darkseid and his crew, starting with Steppenwolf.
I'll give the behind-the-scenes win to Zemo though, due to the fact that Kevin Feige will work with the writers of the Phase 3 movies hand-in-hand to show the aftereffects of Civil War, whereas WB and Snyder are bringing Supes back one movie after he "died" to punch Steppenwolf in the face.
Though I like BvS, most of the plot, especially the titular fight, was due to script necessities, not thought-out in-universe explanations.
EDIT: To the author, good thread.