Apocalypse vs. Dr. Manhattan

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
So your retreating back into comic domain in a movie discussion? What does that have to do with the price of fish in Tokyo?

EXPLAIN The link then Arachnid? Because doing what he did THROUGH Erik is still a massive TP feat that you cannot handwave away.

I already explained this, but here we go again. Xavier's powers have a much broader RANGE than Apocs does. Apoc's powers are localised, focused, not nearly as far reaching as Charles powers. In a modern world, where you can subjugate the entire world's population with a thought, Charles's reach would be ideal. Apoc's range is no greater than Emma frosts was in First Class, but his TP STRENGTH is far greater.

Apoc stated he is linked to his Horsemen. He gives them their powers, transforms their bodies, and develops some kind of power link to them. I obviously cant scientifically explain a fictional ability, but this link was how he got at Xavier through Mags.

But he never uses this apparently super powerful TP on anyone else besides Xavier when he tries to mindphuck him. Isn't that a bit strange to you? It suggests that the telepath has to establish the link, and Apoc just defends using his own resistance.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
No, I'm not retreating into comic domain. I'm using that as an example. I clearly stated that it's part of Apocs abilities, which he explained.

Apoc stated he is linked to his Horsemen. He gives them their powers, transforms their bodies, and develops some kind of power link to them. I obviously cant scientifically explain a fictional ability, but this link was how he got at Xavier through Mags.

But he never uses this apparently super powerful TP on anyone else besides Xavier when he tries to mindphuck him. Isn't that a bit strange to you? It suggests that the telepath has to establish the link, and Apoc just defends using his own resistance.

http://xmenmovies.wikia.com/wiki/Apocalypse

YouTube video

It's all in there. You don't have a leg to stand on.

That doesn't allow a handwaive explanation to say that not only does Apoc's suposedly superior mental defences to literally OVERCOME Charles so completely he becomes brainslaved to Apoc for 5 minutes while Apoc rids the world of nukes, makes a global announcement, and makes charles shitscared all in one go.

It sugests to me that Apoc has more than one way to **** people over, which is true. He TPs the telepaths to prove he can beat them at their own game. He disintegrates fools who stand in his way. he beats down speedsters at his leisure. He flashfries the projectiles of lesser mutants with his shields. The only one who bested Apoc directly was Phoenix. End of story.

My question now is this. Why does Apoc having demonstratable TP vex so many people? Is it because of these damn vs matches? for gods sake people. He did the feats, it's on screen. get over it and move on.

Wikis don't count as screen feats in the mvf.

Because he does NOT have the feats. He does not have one instance of irrefutable displayed TP like Xavier and Jean do at multiple points. His only instances that could be interpreted as TP can be explained by a link to another telepath. Also, don't provide a link to wiki as proof.

And you saying he has other ways of phucking people over and thats why he chooses not to use TP is a poor argument. Especially at the end when he was getting overwhelmed. If he had TP, he'd just take control of Mags or Quicksilver and slaughter them all. If he had TP, he wouldn't have to convince his horsemen to join him with promises of power and a better future. If he had TP, he wouldn't have gotten betrayed both in the past and present by his subjects. If he had TP, he'd use it constantly as an insta-win against anyone but Xavier, but instead he never uses it against anyone else. If he was a telepath, he could just teleport over, kill Xavier, and use Cerbro to just amp his own abilities.

There are so many different ways the movie would have gone down if he had TP, but he doesn't, and never displayed an irrefutable instance of using it that couldn't be explained by a different cause. Until he does, it is not part of his power set.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Wikis don't count as screen feats in the mvf.

On their own, no. But they corroborate by explaining which scenes he used the powers in, which reinforces my point.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Because he does NOT have the feats. He does not have one instance of irrefutable displayed TP like Xavier and Jean do at multiple points. His only instances that could be interpreted as TP can be explained by a link to another telepath. Also, don't provide a link to wiki as proof.

And you saying he has other ways of phucking people over and thats why he chooses not to use TP is a poor argument. Especially at the end when he was getting overwhelmed. If he had TP, he'd just take control of Mags or Quicksilver and slaughter them all. If he had TP, he wouldn't have to convince his horsemen to join him with promises of power and a better future. If he had TP, he wouldn't have gotten betrayed both in the past and present by his subjects. If he had TP, he'd use it constantly as an insta-win against anyone but Xavier, but instead he never uses it against anyone else. If he was a telepath, he could just teleport over, kill Xavier, and use Cerbro to just amp his own abilities.

There are so many different ways the movie would have gone down if he had TP, but he doesn't, and never displayed an irrefutable instance of using it that couldn't be explained by a different cause. Until he does, it is not part of his power set.

He never had a link directly to Charles. His only link was to Erik, so he'd still need to overwhelm Xavier's TP to get in, and you can't do that without TP. The Wiki, on it's own, is not proof, but it corroborates the scenes in which the powers are used. It's no different than you trying to prove the opposite with nothing but words anyway.

The ending scene, do you remember exactly what Apoc was doing? Because IIRC, he was physically holding off 4 physical assaults from Mags, Scott, Storm and Hank, While at the same time mentally fighting Xavier. Yeah, lets use the most distracted moment, while already in a TP battle, to.... say he doesn't have TP.... Makes sense.

That is awful, awful logic, and you should never have argued it. 'Coulda Woulda Shoulda' is not indispensable evidence.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He never had a link directly to Charles. His only link was to Erik, so he'd still need to overwhelm Xavier's TP to get in, and you can't do that without TP. The Wiki, on it's own, is not proof, but it corroborates the scenes in which the powers are used. It's no different than you trying to prove the opposite with nothing but words anyway.

The ending scene, do you remember exactly what Apoc was doing? Because IIRC, he was physically holding off 4 physical assaults from Mags, Scott, Storm and Hank, While at the same time mentally fighting Xavier. Yeah, lets use the most distracted moment, while already in a TP battle, to.... say he doesn't have TP.... Makes sense.

That is awful, awful logic, and you should never have argued it. 'Coulda Woulda Shoulda' is not indispensable evidence.

He wasn't just holding off that assault. He was absolutely effortlessly destroying Xavier in his own domain. Not much effort to hold off. Now lets say we ignore that scene all together. It still doesn't explain him never actually using TP against anyone like Jean and Xavier did multiple times. He only started his battle with Xavier those last minutes, but what about the rest of the movie? This is perfect logic. It would be his most useful and powerful ability, if he's more powerful than Xavier like you claimed. Theres no reason not to use it and take control of Quicksilver when he was being blitzed to hell for example. There's no reason for him to have to logically convince his horsemen to join him.

The main reason I'm arguing against it is because he wasn't shown to use TP offensively in his fights with anyone. If we give him TP on these forums, it's an insta-win for him in just about every encounter, even though it wasn't an instawin for him in every encounter in the movie. If he had it, he'd use it.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Charles linked to Erik in that scene before Apoc interfered. That was how Apoc was indirectly linked to Xavier.

He wasn't just holding off that assault. He was absolutely effortlessly destroying Xavier in his own domain. Not much effort to hold off. Now lets say we ignore that scene all together. It still doesn't explain him never actually using TP against anyone like Jean and Xavier did multiple times. He only started his battle with Xavier those last minutes, but what about the rest of the movie? This is perfect logic. It would be his most useful and powerful ability, if he's more powerful than Xavier like you claimed. Theres no reason not to use it and take control of Quicksilver when he was being blitzed to hell for example. There's no reason for him to have to logically convince his horsemen to join him.

The main reason I'm arguing against it is because he wasn't shown to use TP offensively in his fights with anyone. If we give him TP on these forums, it's an insta-win for him in just about every encounter, even though it wasn't an instawin for him in every encounter in the movie. If he had it, he'd use it.

Your arguing semantics and a case of PIS. The problem is the plot. It's not my fault that even though Apoc has TP, he doesn't always use it, that is a problem of the writing. They gave Apoc an absolute plethora of high end exotic powers, and they probably needed to showcase them all. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He has shown it, therefore it is there, and the majority of people agree.

And there, you just admitted it was for the sake of these vs matches. It's not for lack of showing, its because, like Onslaught, TP is a pretty hax power to have. But, like Onslaught, Apoc doesn't always use the power, even at every given opportunity.

DM slaughters him

Thats because DR.M is even more uber.

Apocalypse has already shown molecular disintegration can overload his shields. Manhattan should take it based on that.

Originally posted by Impediment
Confession time: I have yet to see the new film. I made a thread cuz I'm bored, stuck in a motel 20 miles from the Mexican border. 😛

watch porn... lol

anyways Doc obliterates with ease

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your arguing semantics and a case of PIS. The problem is the plot. It's not my fault that even though Apoc has TP, he doesn't always use it, that is a problem of the writing. They gave Apoc an absolute plethora of high end exotic powers, and they probably needed to showcase them all. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He has shown it, therefore it is there, and the majority of people agree.

And there, you just admitted it was for the sake of these vs matches. It's not for lack of showing, its because, like Onslaught, TP is a pretty hax power to have. But, like Onslaught, Apoc doesn't always use the power, even at every given opportunity.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Well yeah, this is a versus forum. Doesn't it make sense to argue power sets? This is really the only place it makes sense, and it happens in every thread. Anyway, it doesn't matter why I arguing. The argument is still valid. Bottom line is Apoc was never shown using TP offensively. For that reason, its not a valid argument on these forums. Maybe that will change in a future installment, but for now he does not have TP.

Sorry, but Apoc jacking Xavier and Cerebro through Erik is still offensive, still TP, and still valid. You can't dismiss this.