Legends: ROTJ Novel makes it clear Vader > Rots Anakin.
Disney Canon: LOTS makes it clear Vader > Rots Anakin.
Take your pick.
Lucas never cared for either of those 2 Continuitys btw. Lucas Canon would just be the first 6 films plus TCW series. But either way Lucas never said Anakin > Vader, only that he had more "potential" before getting cut into pieces:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He also believes Anakin to be weak. 👆
Emotionally and psychologically, yeah. He was pep talking the dark side, not making a statement about their comparative raw power, lmao.
Anakin has repeatedly been mentioned as either a candidate for or outright the most powerful Jedi in all of history - .ie, Yoda tier. Vader simply isn't on that level. He may be more refined in his mastery of the Force, but he isn't matching Skywalker in a duel.
Originally posted by The EllimistYes I'm sure it had nothing to do with power, which is irrelevant to Vader. And when he claimed to be more powerful than ever, was pretending that Anakin shtick never happened.
Emotionally and psychologically, yeah. He was pep talking the dark side, not making a statement about their comparative raw power, lmao.
Anakin has repeatedly been mentioned as either a candidate for or outright the most powerful Jedi in all of history - .ie, Yoda tier. Vader simply isn't on that level. He may be more refined in his mastery of the Force, but he isn't matching Skywalker in a duel.Yet despite that, evidently never reached it, otherwise Yoda wouldn't have sent Kenobi after him while professing he was not strong enough to face a Yoda-tier opponent i.e. Darth Sidious.
Face it. Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever refers to potential. Whereas there are sources in both Canon and Legends (the former being the only one of real relevance) that state Vader is altogether more powerful. Vader > Anakin. Case closed. 🙂
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Emotionally and psychologically, yeah. He was pep talking the dark side, not making a statement about their comparative raw power, lmao.Anakin has repeatedly been mentioned as either a candidate for or outright the most powerful Jedi in all of history.
That just means Vader is that powerful 👆
However, in terms of pure dueling skills, I am inclined to agree with you. In a purely sabers confrontation, Anakin could come out on top. In all-out and Force contests, I hold Anakin loses.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes I'm sure it had nothing to do with power, which is irrelevant to Vader.
Except RotS Anakin wasn't "weak" by any reasonable standards. 😬 Your interpretation of him referring to power not only works against the very point of that dialogue, but also is the interpretation that is less congruent with the various sources stating the opposite, and ergo is inferior.
Regardless, Vader said lots of things in that dialogue that were wrong - but it concedes the fact that he doesn't think he's Anakin.
And when he claimed to be more powerful than ever, was pretending that Anakin shtick never happened.
Yep. He refers to Anakin in the third person and expresses revulsion at even being called that name.
Yet despite that, evidently never reached it, otherwise Yoda wouldn't have sent Kenobi after him while professing he was not strong enough to face a Yoda-tier opponent i.e. Darth Sidious.
Yoda's opinion < Gillard's, and in either case, Anakin being the most powerful Jedi doesn't make him the deadliest in a one vs. one confrontation.
Face it. Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever refers to potential.
Why would potential be referenced in the context of a real-time engagement, as it was when comparing Obi Wan and Anakin? How do you explain the RotS novelization calling Anakin "the strongest" and "the fastest"? And if it were a matter of potential, why would Windu and Stover even use "maybe" qualifications?
Whereas there are sources in both Canon and Legends (the former being the only one of real relevance)
Yeah, we're clearly talking about Legends.
that state Vader is altogether more powerful. Vader > Anakin. Case closed. 🙂
The only source in Legends you've provided is from Vader, who doesn't consider himself and Anakin to be equivalent individuals.
Originally posted by The EllimistSo? If Vader claims him to be weak then obviously he is not more powerful.
Except RotS Anakin wasn't "weak" by any reasonable standards. 😬 Your interpretation of him referring to power not only works against the very point of that dialogue, but also is the interpretation that is less congruent with the various sources stating the opposite, and ergo is inferior.Regardless, Vader said lots of things in that dialogue that were wrong - but it concedes the fact that he doesn't think he's Anakin.
You also need to understand the difference between claiming to be a new person, and having a split-personality disorder. Vader has disowned his identity as Anakin, yes, but he still acknowledges Anakin as part of his history, because if he did not he would be insane.
Yep. He refers to Anakin in the third person and expresses revulsion at even being called that name.You can't express revulsion at something that never happened. 😬
Yoda's opinion < Gillard's, and in either case, Anakin being the most powerful Jedi doesn't make him the deadliest in a one vs. one confrontation.Lol, "Gillard's opinion" > what we are actually told in the movie. 😂
Regardless, quite right, Anakin's power/potential does not translate into combative ability. He is not a Yoda tier opponent and he's not beating Vader. And as far as Nick Gillard's actual opinion goes on the matter:
"We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda..."
--Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette
👆
In fact there are countless sources that state Yoda to be the most powerful Jedi ever, as Mace to be second to him. Some examples:
Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.
--Star Wars Fact Files
Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda's incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.
--Star Wars Fact Files
Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.
--Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived.
--Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order.
--Star Wars: The Sith Wars
While he is the most powerful Jedi, it's Yoda's wisdom that continues to resonate with fans today.
--StarWars.com
Credit to Aurbere's respect thread.
Why would potential be referenced in the context of a real-time engagement, as it was when comparing Obi Wan and Anakin? How do you explain the RotS novelization calling Anakin "the strongest" and "the fastest"? And if it were a matter of potential, why would Windu and Stover even use "maybe" qualifications?As far as the RotS novelisation goes, evidently Yoda and Windu are excluded (i.e. its hyperbole), as its just not true. As you yourself conceded, Anakin is not the deadliest in a combative engagement as these attributes would have him be.
Yeah, we're clearly talking about Legends.Uh-huh, Canon > Legends. Canon is essentially the truth of Legends, they do not exist in alternate universes. Therefore any conclusion you reach based on Legends that contradicts Canon material, its categorically wrong.
The only source in Legends you've provided is from Vader, who doesn't consider himself and Anakin to be equivalent individuals.❌
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So? If Vader claims him to be weak then obviously he is not more powerful.
He's referring to psychological weakness.
...wait, are you referring to what he said to Ahsoka in Rebels? 😂 Not only is that a different universe, it was in response to Ahsoka questioning his moral values, not his combat ability. I have no idea where you get the impression that they were having a conversation about his ability to augment his precognition and reflexes.
You also need to understand the difference between claiming to be a new person, and having a split-personality disorder. Vader has disowned his identity as Anakin, yes, but he still acknowledges Anakin as part of his history, because if he did not he would be insane.You can't express revulsion at something that never happened. 😬
KEK, that very quote has Vader saying that he destroyed Anakin Skywalker. So I guess by your own literal interpretation, Vader is dead. 👆
Lol, "Gillard's opinion" > what we are actually told in the movie. 😂
Seeing as how Yoda is a fallible source, and his fallibility is one of the motifs of the prequels, yeah.
Gillard places Anakin in the same tier as Sidious and Yoda as a duelist. Vader evidently is not in this tier, seeing as how he couldn't clearly overwhelm ANH Obi Wan.
Regardless, quite right, Anakin's power/potential does not translate into combative ability. He is not a Yoda tier opponent and he's not beating Vader. And as far as Nick Gillard's actual opinion goes on the matter:
Not sure about all-out. His raw power is far more correlated to his augmentation, hence why he's able to beat down Dooku.
Vader couldn't overwhelm ANH Obi Wan, the Dark Woman, or various people as easily as Anakin tooled Dooku. Heck, he couldn't even do as well against an old Obi Wan as Dooku did against him.
"We didn't see Mace fighting yet, but we know that he is second only to Yoda..."
--Star Wars Episode II: Action Featurette
👆
🤣 Yeah, Windu > AotC Anakin, thanks for that info.
In fact there are countless sources that state Yoda to be the most powerful Jedi ever, as Mace to be second to him. Some examples:Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.
--Star Wars Fact Files
What era is this referring to, given your mix-up in the quote above?
This also uses the past tense - it does not preclude Anakin from surpassing him at some point in time, just as Luke eventually would.
Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda's incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.
--Star Wars Fact Files
Does that make him > Sidious now? In either case, Yoda has evidently mastered the Force to a greater extent than Anakin - that doesn't make him greater in raw power.
Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.
--Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
See above.
The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived.
--Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
"Greatest" =/= most powerful.
Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order.
--Star Wars: The Sith Wars
In addition to the above responses, how does this override the movie novelizations and Gillard?
While he is the most powerful Jedi, it's Yoda's wisdom that continues to resonate with fans today.
--StarWars.com
StarWars.com? Seriously? 😆
The intern that wrote that > Nick Gillard?
Credit to Aurbere's respect thread.As far as the RotS novelisation goes, evidently Yoda and Windu are excluded (i.e. its hyperbole), as its just not true.
That's so conveniently circular of you. It's a more solid source than any of the ones you provided.
As you yourself conceded, Anakin is not the deadliest in a combative engagement as these attributes would have him be.
He would be in a duel. Yoda may have the advantage in his agility and technical skill, but I don't see why Vader would.
Uh-huh, Canon > Legends. Canon is essentially the truth of Legends, they do not exist in alternate universes. Therefore any conclusion you reach based on Legends that contradicts Canon material, its categorically wrong.❌
Not only are the majority of your own sources Legend, but this would just be a blanket rebuttal to pretty much every thread made in this forum, like the ones with Vitiate, DE Palpatine, and other entities that don't exist in canon. We're obviously playing with two incompatible universes, and as the OP, I'm using Legends.
Cba to get into a long-winded debate on this, so I'm going to condense:
1. Whatever Vader might be referring to, what it all comes back to is the one thing Vader really cares about, power in the Force. Psychological weakness included. It would therefore be bizarre on Vader's part to regard Anakin as weak if despite all his "moral values" or whatever else, he was still a more powerful being - because that is Vader's ultimately goal, to be powerful.
I'm also still seeing no reason to believe Vader doesn't regard his past as Anakin as part of his past. Regardless of whether he believes there is nothing left of the man that once was.
2. Yoda knows how powerful he is, and it stands to reason he knows how powerful Anakin is, therefore we've no reason to doubt his claim.
3. ABC logic does not work. For example in Canon Vader defeated Dooku far faster than he beat Ahsoka, by your reasoning therefore Ahsoka is far more powerful, as Vader has been stated to have grown stronger in the Force. Fact is there are external factors to consider, like technique, circumstance, personal strengths and weaknesses, etc.
4. Many of the quotes regarding Yoda I raised refer not only to his mastery over the Force, but his application of it i.e. "summon the power of the Force", "use of the Force", particular in regards to combat i.e. Yoda is more powerful than Anakin in practice which is all that really matters, especially in the contexts of a vs debate. Sure, Anakin might ultimately possess more raw power, but that's besides the point if he can't apply that power as effectively as Yoda can (as in it is mere potential).
5. Finally regarding Legends vs Canon, that point would be relevant if we were talking to separate sets of events/characters etc. yet we are not. Evidently some Legends simply did not happen, and for the sake of debate we must assume for a moment that they did, and in the ways described. But Anakin is very real, there is only one of him, and Canon is the highest and most accurate authority on his abilities. 👆
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.
—Beware The SithVADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.
—Lords Of The SithLord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited.
—Return of the Jedi novelisation
Originally posted by relentless1
Anakin wins sabers only