Originally posted by MythLord
I... never denied that. I'm saying the ability he learned strengthened his power in the Force. And it logically should.Um, we do know the teachings of the holocrons Dooku used(at the very least we know of what Andeddu's holocron can teach you) and it's still not quite as much knowledge as being able to switch freely from the living and cosmic Force.
How come? As a Force user overall, to do such a thing, would mean he's grown in the Force. That's logic.
Um, the quote directly says how Vader's power matured and Obi himself experienced a growth in power. Unless Vader's power went to college and got a job, it means he's grown in power. Given he's comparing himself to Vader when he says he's grown, then that means his own power has grown. Again, that's just logic.
And The Life and Legend of Kenobi specifically notes how Obi-Wan counter-balanced that by keeping up with his Jedi training. And again, his strength was enough that Vader couldn't break through his defenses and his speed was enough that if Vader's attention faltered, he could kill him quickly. And I don't think I need to list Vader's speed feats to show why that's impressive. Either way you spin it, Ben is at least comparable to his RotS self in everything bar stamina and there's no noticeable drop in reflexes for him not to errect a Force Barrier or thrust his hand forward to throw out a push against his younger self. Now quit grasping at straws, please.
Not really. The Force doesn't need as much training as, say, a lightsaber does. To master Niman, for example, takes one a decade of practice. If you're powerful enough, the natural flow of the Force in you is enough. We've seen this many times that beings who haven't used the Force for an even longer period of time than Ben can immediately throw out Force Pushes without batting an eyelash. Karness Muur would be one of the best examples.
You misunderstand. I mean that while Dooku was learning unknown abilities from Annedu's holocron that allowed him to grow in power we don't know if he became more powerful because he now knew more useful combative abilities or because his raw power actually grew as he gained knowledge ( like you're suggesting. If it was the former then Old Ben would not have become more powerful by learning a non combative ability.
I think it's pretty clear he's referencing his training by Jinn here when he mention his own growth. As for Vader it seems likeliest to me that he's saying Vader has matured as a darksider which makes sense as Vader by this point in the EU has fully embraced the darkside.
His physicals aside from stamina could be brought up to the level of his RotS incarnation with increased augmentation, yes though of course that would empty his force reserves more quickly. Grasping at straws friend? I'm simply trying to impress upon you the idea that as humans get older they start to decline physically.
Karness Muur is a Sith spirit. Personally I don't really know if being out of practice when using the Force applies to them as they're always apart of the Force. Actually I'm kind of interested in the criteria for becoming a Sith spirit in the first place but that's getting off topic. I agree that force users are still capable of using the Force even after decades but it's likely they would simply be slower on the draw then they were during wartime where they were using it in combat constantly.
Originally posted by Syndicate
You misunderstand. I mean that while Dooku was learning unknown abilities from Annedu's holocron that allowed him to grow in power we don't know if he became more powerful because he now knew more useful combative abilities or because his raw power actually grew as he gained knowledge ( like you're suggesting. If it was the former then Old Ben would not have become more powerful by learning a non combative ability.
The quote says: "enhanced his powers". Meaning, he grew in power. The quote doesn't say "Dooku learned new abilities" it says his "power enhanced".
The definition of enhance is to intensify, increase or improve the quality of something. The knowledge from the holocron isn't just teaching him new powers, it is literally enhancing his power as well.
Originally posted by Syndicate
I think it's pretty clear he's referencing his training by Jinn here when he mention his own growth. As for Vader it seems likeliest to me that he's saying Vader has matured as a darksider which makes sense as Vader by this point in the EU has fully embraced the darkside.
I don't care what he's referencing, he's mentioning his own growth in power. If that was because Jinn trained him then OK, it still doesn't change the fact that he grew in power.
Originally posted by Syndicate
His physicals aside from stamina could be brought up to the level of his RotS incarnation with increased augmentation, yes though of course that would empty his force reserves more quickly.
And, given that he's more powerful now, he has greater reserves to draw upon. Also, if Vader didn't completely tax Kenobi from a 2 minute long duel, then I doubt RotS Obi could do it from just two Force Pushes.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Grasping at straws friend? I'm simply trying to impress upon you the idea that as humans get older they start to decline physically.
And I'm trying to impress upon you the fact that to Force users, especially does who've kept their reflexes in-check like Kenobi, that shouldn't matter. Unless you're taking this fight at baseline physicals which is ridiculous.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Karness Muur is a Sith spirit. Personally I don't really know if being out of practice when using the Force applies to them as they're always apart of the Force. Actually I'm kind of interested in the criteria for becoming a Sith spirit in the first place but that's getting off topic. I agree that force users are still capable of using the Force even after decades but it's likely they would simply be slower on the draw then they were during wartime where they were using it in combat constantly.
So what if he's a spirit? He isn't "one with the Force" nor is he always drawing upon it consistently and he still uses the Force quite effectively against Krayt, one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, after more than seven thousand years of not applying it combatively.
Originally posted by MythLord
The quote says: "enhanced his powers". Meaning, he grew in power. The quote doesn't say "Dooku learned new abilities" it says his "power enhanced".The definition of enhance is to intensify, increase or improve the quality of something. The knowledge from the holocron isn't just teaching him new powers, it is literally enhancing his power as well.
I don't care what he's referencing, he's mentioning his own growth in power. If that was because Jinn trained him then OK, it still doesn't change the fact that he grew in power.
And, given that he's more powerful now, he has greater reserves to draw upon. Also, if Vader didn't completely tax Kenobi from a 2 minute long duel, then I doubt RotS Obi could do it from just two Force Pushes.
And I'm trying to impress upon you the fact that to Force users, especially does who've kept their reflexes in-check like Kenobi, that shouldn't matter. Unless you're taking this fight at baseline physicals which is ridiculous.
So what if he's a spirit? He isn't "one with the Force" nor is he always drawing upon it consistently and he still uses the Force quite effectively against Krayt, one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, after more than seven thousand years of not applying it combatively.
Fair enough but it says directly that it's the holocron enhancing his power rather then the knowledge therein.
I think the growth he's mentioning is the ability he learned, not growth in actual power.
Well that's being contested right now so to use that belief in support of your argument here doesn't mean much until the matter of their comparative power is settled. I didn't say RotS Kenobi could tax him with just 2 force pushes. I'm just mentioning his physical reflexes as you brought it up earlier.
I'm taking into account that baseline physical superiority is an advantage over two opponents with equal or near equal power levels.
Well that's debatable actually. Becoming a spirit is just imprinting yourself in the Force. Who's to say Dark Side spirits don't do the same thing Yoda, Obi Wan and Qui Gon did just in a Dark Side manner? Again as a spirit your not tied down by a physical form and I imagine since everything in the world you're affecting and affected by is formed on the basis of the Force your abilities aren't going to stagnate in the same way if at all.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough but it says directly that it's the holocron enhancing his power rather then the knowledge therein.
Well, unless you're Rivan, the power of a holocron is insignificant. The only thing it can offer Dooku is knowledge.
Originally posted by Syndicate
I think the growth he's mentioning is the ability he learned, not growth in actual power.
Given the fact that he's comparing his growth to Vader which in the quote is power-related, he's talking about power. I don't get why you're just painfully grasping at the cheapest of excuses to get this through your head.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Well that's being contested right now so to use that belief in support of your argument here doesn't mean much until the matter of their comparative power is settled. I didn't say RotS Kenobi could tax him with just 2 force pushes. I'm just mentioning his physical reflexes as you brought it up earlier.
Right, and so far your arguments either consist of moving the goalpost onto irrelevant tangents like the point I have the [pain] pleasure of countering now, or grasping at straws.
Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm taking into account that baseline physical superiority is an advantage over two opponents with equal or near equal power levels.
Good thing that's not the case here.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Well that's debatable actually. Becoming a spirit is just imprinting yourself in the Force. Who's to say Dark Side spirits don't do the same thing Yoda, Obi Wan and Qui Gon did just in a Dark Side manner? Again as a spirit your not tied down by a physical form and I imagine since everything in the world you're affecting and affected by is formed on the basis of the Force your abilities aren't going to stagnate in the same way if at all.
And here's the problem with that: Karness Muur was trapped in a Talisman, incapable of being freed and imprinting himself in the Force. Also, it's kinda against Sith teachings to even imprint yourself onto the Force as a spirit, but rather live on. So between him being trapped and likely not wanting to do the Jedi-ish thing of becoming One with the Force, there really is nothing suggesting he wouldn't be hindered after seven millenia of not using the Force if Kenobi was hindered at it after less than two decades. But since we know that isn't the case with Muur, it's hardly the case with Ben. Are we done running around in useless tangents, now?
Originally posted by MythLord
I didn't insult you did I. Just saying the hard truth that you are grasping at straws. Enjoy Zootopia
Nah you're assuming you understand my stance and then declaring your assumption in an attempt to show off your superioirty. It's quite annoying and I'd appreciate it if you stopped otherwise these will once again become the only medium we actually interact in.
Edit: Alright, see you all in an hour.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Nah you're assuming you understand my stance and then declaring your assumption in an attempt to show off your superioirty. It's quite annoying and I'd appreciate it if you stopped otherwise these will once again become the only medium we actually interact in.
Wait, wut? So me countering your statements in order to debate is me insulting you and not keeping things civil? Are you from tumblr... That would explain your sensitivity.