Originally posted by AncientPower
Homophobia is the strongest sign of insecurity and latent homosexuality. But sure, your blatant immaturity isn't at all strengthening my point.
Setting the annoying threshold at carthage-level was an oversight. You're definitely the most annoying personality here, without intention 🙄
For the thread: I think Valky beats this version of Sidious and probably any version of Sidious. Which might not come as a surprise to anyone, but if you really look at a side by side comparison of the two, it's very possible that Vitiate might be stronger than his supposed 'counterpart' at the age of 13. But as the centuries pass it's unquestionable. The environment and era he was born under forces competition. And rather than the romantic... and somewhat overdone notion of light vs dark, good vs evil, Jedi vs Sith, the remnants of the Old Sith Empire had to prepare for combat against archaic sith techniques. Plenty of this is stuff Palaptine hadn't access to given the amount of knowledge lost in various wars , such as the planet-sized storehouse known as Malchor V. To put the final nail in the coffin, he only has to maintain superiority over his apprentices... two schlubs and a half-crippled roboman in the grand scheme of things. So when someone of actual worth comes to challenge him, who's learning of the dark ways are completely independent, have lasted over a millennium and come from a broader pool of knowledge, it is only logical to assume that Palpatine gets dethroned in direct confrontation with said individual. That aside, his ritual on Nathema makes the domination of Byss look like a sad joke, and his immortality does - as a matter of fact - eclipse anything Plaugeis and Sidious ever achieved.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Except, the quote has been retconned. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia changes it to Kun being "once the most powerful", whilst that source and others since proclaim Palpatine as the most powerful. That's my point - there's never since been a retcon of Palpatine's quotes, hence they stand.
Hopefully Nai catches this. Perhaps someone can notify him?
Originally posted by Nai
1)
Being described as outright prodigious in the Force, pretty much more than any other character in the mythos so far (going by age / demonstrated abilities). Killing a fully grown Sith Lord, conquering a planet and being proclaimed Sith Lord yourself by the age of, what, 13 (?) appears to be rather impressive. Then growing on that for - what - a hundred years?
The Force progresses at somewhat uneven rates within characters, so while prodigiousness is presumably correlated with potential, it isn't exact. AotC Anakin is probably weaker than RoT Bane, despite obviously having more potential and about the same number of years of practice, but then between AotC and RotS he vastly outstrips him. Indeed, didn't Plagueis himself speculate that Palpatine may have been so powerful that the dark side hid itself in him?
2)
Draining 8,000 Sith Lords. While you think that most of that went to his immortality, I haven't even seen an allusion in that direction so far. Especially when we consider that Vitiate with his powers has pretty much rendered Scourge, Revan and his Servants immortal. Mind dominating those aforementioned 8,000 Sith Lords and use them for your ritual that zapped them (and the entire planet) empty, is another testament to Vitiate's power and knowledge.
Mind dominating them could very well have been tied into the ritual itself, in the same manner the thought bomb consumed Kaan and all his followers but doesn't prove Kaan is powerful enough to solo the brotherhood. Now yes, the 8000 sith lords made him more powerful - but how do you quantify this increase? Just taking it at face value you'd predict that on a dark side nexus and almost a thousand years later he'd be able to one-shot Scourge, Meetra and even Revan...oh.
It's possible for Palpatine to have been born so powerful in the Force that he could compensate for Vitiate's artificial boosts via his sheer natural ability. It certainly fits with his character and role as the pinnacle of the Banite line, and Plagueis's own speculations.
3)
His actual demonstrations of power:a)
Did, apparently, one-shot an entire Dark Council with a Force attack.
With prep, on a nexus, which he never replicates. 👆
b)
Pretty much one-shots Revan, apparently not having the intent to kill him, given that he keeps him alive.
Actually, he gets his lightning knocked back at him, and disarmed by Meetra's saber throw. He overwhelms Revan (on a dark side nexus) using a charged lightning attack. Sidious, meanwhile, pushed Yoda's tutanimis to its limits without the need for any build-up.
c)
One-Shots Darth Marr, one of the most powerful Sith the SW:ToR era Empire had to offer, given that he seems to be the defacto ruler of the Empire, which had people like Thanaton in the Dark Council.
Sidious one-shot Agen Kolar, one of the greatest duelists in the Order's history. He also effectively one-shots Yoda at the beginning of their duel - Yoda was caught off guard, but frankly he had more grounds to be prepared than a Marr who was busy killing Valkorion's guards was.
d)
Produces kills on (usually shielded) star ships with his force lightning aimed at Arcann as "collateral damage", implying some vast amount of power.
He disables them, probably by screwing with their control systems, he doesn't literally bust their armor. Yoda, however, does destroy two massive droid landing ships with sheer telekinesis.
e)
Being heralded as godlike and being put above all Sith that came before him, putting him on top of a pile that includes Tulak Hord, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh and Marka Ragnos. Knowing what some of those could do (as well as their implied powers) that is pretty awesome.
And Sidious is considered by a reputable historian, as well as Darth Vader, to be the most powerful sith lord who had ever existed. Seeing as how none of those sith you mentioned have ever repeated feats on their own power to match those of Sidious's or Yoda's, that really doesn't impress me.
f)
Having more than a millenia to refine his skills and abilities and further his knowledge. In that time, he constructed the Dark Temple, corrupted the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas with his mere presence, created his Servants and Children and made Scourge immortal. The latter already implies that he is more knowledgeable / stronger in the force than post-balance shift Plagueis, who dreams of him and his apprentice being able to prolong their lifes for as long as the see fit.
Or it implies that he knows things that Sidious and Plagueis don't, just like how Plagueis can manipulate midichlorians and shift the balance of the Force and Valkorion can't. 👆
BTW, it's pretty heavily implied that Plagueis had achieved biological immortality.
This kind or argument is rather silly from a Sidious supporter, given that Sidious is not only confronted rather often, but is also defeated rather often in those kind of challenges.
Um...no? Sidious only ever loses in a direct confrontation twice; once to Mace Windu, and the other to Luke. In the former case, Windu is using vaapad to draw off of Sidious's own energies, and in the latter case Luke is being amped by Leia's Force harmony.
Vitiate, as it seems, doesn't care much about whom confronts him, given that he deems himself far superior to any other being in the Galaxy - which he probably is. And up to this point, while there have been some drawbacks to his plans of course, he still remains there, despite all the effort that various factions did put in to see his demise. In his Valkorion persona, he doesn't even seem to care any longer about such things as existing as a corporeal being or as a spirit any longer. He pretty much is in a position where Exar Kun did want to go in his final moments: A spirit capable of running rampant through the Galaxy, if he so choses. I mean, seriously: There is nobody of really "stopping" him, is there?
Which doesn't change the fact that he has never fought anyone on Sidious's level, nor he has ever dominated combatants as powerful as those Sidious has, nor has ever matched Sidious's best Force feats on his own power. The only feat you gave me that wasn't either the product of rituals or a nexus was his one-shotting Darth Marr - and heck, isn't the throne room a nexus? 😂
Cosmologically, unbalancing the Force (even if the Force didn't actively fight back, there's still inertia) strikes me as more impressive than, well, whatever Valkorion has done without a nexus. In personal combat, matching Yoda is more impressive than one-shotting Darth Marr. There's pretty much nothing you've provided to place Valkorion on Sidious's level beyond speculation about how much his rituals have amped him that would have led us to believe that novel Vitiate could've instantly killed the trio that confronted him (spoiler: he didn't). I suppose you could argue that Valkorion doesn't really have a clear upper limit on his powers, so he could be stronger than Sidious - but that doesn't make it probable given what we've seen from him.
Valkorion takes this with some difficulty. And also I could say some things about Sidious which were singularities as well, though. Like charring three Prophets(on a dark side nexus); and he never replicates that feat again. He never turned Windu into ash when he fully blasted him with Force lightning, he never did it against Yoda; nor again Galen Marek. We never see Sidious replicating his life-drain feat in Star Wars, except the Byss thing. We never see him replicating again that rubbing Coruscant memory feat(it's even debateable if that really happened; as it was Wedge the one who wished to believe Palpy rubbed the people's mind IIRC)
We never see him replicating the DBZ speed feat again. But obviously it is nothing more but that blurry speed which can be replicated by many trained Force-users. We never see him manipulating the midi-chlorians(at its fullest as he claims to)
On the other hand; Vitiate killed a fully-fledged Dark Lord. Was from a young age a ruler.
He mind-bent 8000 Sith Lords to his will and maintained a great control over long days. And also to say it was a part of the ritual; it's just stupid. That would mean Vitiate had to be mindraped too as he was a part of the ritual, essentially, as well. And the Thought-bomb is created when darksiders combine their strengths; no one is mindraped in that ritual.
Vitiate could create monoliths at will; destroyed guys with a flash of lightning.
And also to say he needed dark side nexuses, it's just stupid since he mindraped 8000 Lords before the Nathema ritual(so the magnitude of his other Force powers should be, essentially, the same)
Valkorion being amped, makes almost no sense; when you take in fact that every darksider's amped by dark nexuses, not just one. And in order to be amplified by a Force nexus; you actually have to be willing to use it.
Sidious charring those Prophets was a remote event which never repeated after. So it's safe to assume he amplified his Force lightning attack from the dark side nexus from there.
Sidious bends Windu's blade; and yet he never repeats that feat again, ever.
Sidious never mind-bent Luke, Vader, Dooku, Maul, no team of Jedi or "Sith", whereas Vitiate did it. Vitiate mind-raped an entire planet(Ziost); one-shot Darth Marr with lightning and those guys before as Vitiate with a flash of lightning. Sidious failed at killing Luke on the Death Star with Force lightning in one-shot whereas Valkorion did it and had done it before. Palpy never mind-bent any Force-user instantly, Valkorion did it three times(Medriaas, Revan+Malak, Ziost)
Palpatine couldn't never share his essence with others; Vitiate could. He couldn't make other people immortal, Vitiate could. Revan and Marr had no idea how to contain Valkorion's essence; while Palpatine was easily dragged down into Chaos by the dead Jedi's spirits in Dark Empire. If that were possible in Valkorion's case while he was existing in a disembodied form; the Jedi'd have had dragged him just as they did in Sidious' case. And Plagueis and Palpatine acted according to the Force's will. It wasn't their god-like DBZ Ultra Mega Super Hype Power that allowed them to do that. They just did the Force's will.
I know that it might sound stupid; but that's it.
It's funny to think that both Nihilus and Valkorion were never dragged down by the dead Jedi's spirits and they were a threat to the galaxy meaning they were focusing to kill the galaxy... I'm pretty sure the dead Jedi's spirits'd have done that if they could.
Don't read my last thing; I was just going off-topic.