Originally posted by BeniboyblingI've already pointed out the fallacies in your take on this in another thread.
Same thing that stopped him mindraping Revan, the JK, the Outlander, I imagine.What Vader-tier Force users has Vitiate mindraped, exactly?
Originally posted by The EllimistI'll rephrase it with more detail then.
I'm just not very impressed by his struggling with Revan when he had a nexus described for its amazing power on multiple occasions on his side.Yeah, but he doesn't have the distance to charge up such an attack here. His off-the-hip attacks did nothing to Revan.
Vader >> HoT.
Ehhh maybe. But the overall impression of Vitiate's combat awareness isn't very good, and given his precarious starting position, it puts him in a pinch.
The way people talk about this sounds like they're assuming that Vitiate can't cast the generic continuous lightning like Sheev or almost every other Sith does. Since he clearly can, he doesn't have to either charge his lightning and then release at once or cast halfass bolts. He can simply pour more and more until Vader can't take it.
About TP, Vitiate possessed Ziost while extremely weakened, not sure what Vader's mind can do to survive this confrontation without Revan's advantages.
Vitiate hasn't been challenged by anyone in his entire life
Until Revan, who batted his attacks back at him on a dark side nexus. Vitiate won by charging an attack; how does he have space to do that here?
DC is hyped to be the collaboration of the most powerful Sith in his empire, and the guy seems to find ways to one-shot them collectively.
He planned for their arrival at the base of his power on a nexus, and kills them using some method that he conveniently never uses again. Sounds doubtful that he could just pull it off with three meters to spare on neutral territory.
The same novel tries really hard to depict an Emperor far above anyone else.
The mythos tries really hard to depict Sidious as being at the top of the most potent era, and Talzin matches him.
Given all this, I believe it's kinda safe to think that Vitiate simply underestimated the guy so he halfassed the fight in general and was also taken by surprise by Revan's successful mental resistance.
OK, so he's a lazy and bad fighter; why wouldn't he do the same with Vader?
I still don't see evidence that Vitiate actually could've killed Revan casually if he'd wanted to. If he held back, those illusions should've gone away when Revan first knocked back his attempt at mental domination.
The way people talk about this sounds like they're assuming that Vitiate can't cast the generic continuous lightning like Sheev or almost every other Sith does. Since he clearly can, he doesn't have to either charge his lightning and then release at once or cast halfass bolts. He can simply pour more and more until Vader can't take it.
From three meters out?
But why didn't he just do that? I'd imagine that the bolts he launched at Revan held some unique advantage over the continuous stream, or he wouldn't have bothered using them.
About TP, Vitiate possessed Ziost while extremely weakened, not sure what Vader's mind can do to survive this confrontation without Revan's advantages.
Wasn't Ziost a nexus?
You mistook all my points as I never said he can pull these things off casually or that all that information should be taken at face value, but merely explained why it's natural for him to underestimate Revan and perform terribly against him.
Also, iirc, Vitiate was so weakened that he was on the brink of death during Ziost, which is why I mentioned a feat 300 years after the novel that took place on a nexus.
The setting of this fight is pretty unnatural, given these guys have no history and the starting distance is oddly close, and the fight takes place outside DK let alone the citadel. I mean, we've never really seen novel Vitiate under these circumstances. So, assuming that Vitiate would halfass the fight in a similar fashion doesn't make sense imo, and even if he did, he'd simply attack Vader's mind as he did to Revan.
Also, I think it's best to assume that both characters will go all out to see where they should be placed as combatants, especially since we see a drastic change in Vitiate's mentality right after this fight.
I guess it's possible that Vitiate was holding back against Revan by some unknown amount, even after Revan resisted his TP and knocked him back, although even when the three stood against him at the end it was implied that they had a shot.
Take away the nexus and starting distance but add in him trying harder - does this actually help Vitiate?
I just don't see what Vitiate has done that gives him the win here, and I don't think we can just speculate as to whether he's actually far more powerful than he's shown.
I don't see him TP'ing anyone on Vader's level, seeing as how he's never done so.
Yeah, he was more powerful than Revan in the Force, but even with that, more starting distance, and a powerful nexus, he needed to charge up an attack to break through Revan's defenses - and he only has three meters here.
Originally posted by The EllimistSidious's mental assault on Vader compared to novel suggesting that Revan would be helpless without experiencing Vitiate's attack in the past tbh.
I don't see him TP'ing anyone on Vader's level, seeing as how he's never done so.Yeah, he was more powerful than Revan in the Force, but even with that, more starting distance, and a powerful nexus, he needed to charge up an attack to break through Revan's defenses - and he only has three meters here.
So the nexus amp = unquantifiable
Vitiate holding back = unquantifiable.
Vitiate's crucial superiority to Revan in the Force = undeniable.
And from all this you think that a Revan level opponent defeats Vitiate because of 3 meters distance?
Sidious caught Vader off guard, and honestly OT Sidious is far more powerful than novel Vitiate. Likewise, I still don't think Revan is as powerful as Vader; and he was facing a nexus-amped Vitiate.
I think it's reasonable to say that the influence of a powerful nexus matters more than Vitiate "holding back", because it would be ridiculous for Vitiate to hold back after he got knocked back on his ass by Revan the first time, and after Revan showed that he could resist his TP, which apparently nobody had ever pulled off before.
Yeah, Vitiate was superior to Revan in the Force - which makes his performance all the more underwhelming. And here he's right next to Vader and within one lunge from decapitation.
Originally posted by The EllimistI actually sorta agree with this, but the fact that Sidious can do it from the other side of the galaxy still speaks for the gap of power between them when it comes to TP. Also, doesn't he literally sense what Vader is contemplating there, which is what causes him to invade Vader's mind in the first place?
Sidious caught Vader off guard, and honestly OT Sidious is far more powerful than novel Vitiate.
One can argue that OT Sidious has superior raw power to Vitiate, but I'm not sure if he has superior TP. I think it's clear that they're at least operating on similar levels, and in their first confrontation Vitiate was expecting Revan, sure, but the fact that he mindraped Malak with him and how he couldn't ever mindrape him again even with 300 years long time and help from Dread Masters makes the prep he had in the first confrontation quite unimportant regarding why he couldn't mindrape Revan in the novel as it clearly isn't about circumstances, but whether Vitiate's opponents have first time experience or not. This logic is compatible with other instances where Vitikorion TPs his opponents.
Revan wills himself out of death and still fails, why would Vader manage to survive such TP?
Likewise, I still don't think Revan is as powerful as Vader; and he was facing a nexus-amped Vitiate.Novel Revan vs Darth Vader Force Only is quite debatable, especially in TP.I think it's reasonable to say that the influence of a powerful nexus matters more than Vitiate "holding back", because it would be ridiculous for Vitiate to hold back after he got knocked back on his ass by Revan the first time, and after Revan showed that he could resist his TP, which apparently nobody had ever pulled off before.
Well, only in the end we see a change in Vitiate, in fact, Drew on some instances tries to depict how still and calm Vitiate is, until he actually gets pissed and unleashes an attack that one-shots Revan.
Yeah, Vitiate was superior to Revan in the Force - which makes his performance all the more underwhelming. And here he's right next to Vader and within one lunge from decapitation.Since we're not assuming that this fight will be under similar circumstances in which these characters will react similarly (more transparently, since this isn't Drew's shitty writing), and we're assuming that they'll go all out (end novel Vitiate would anyway even with Drew's writing), Vitaite will either pour lightning until Vader can't take it anymore or will overwhelm him with a TP attack.
If he screws up even slightly though, Vader would naturally win due to 3 meters starting distance.