Trump is trying to sabotage his own election. If not, give me three good reasons why Mike Pence, who didn't even support Trump, would make a good vice president.
Seems pretty clear he was chosen because his reprehensible LGBT laws are going to drive away any potential liberal voters and make the election of Hillary seem more urgent.
Like I said, if you disagree, then give me reasons why he's qualified to be VP.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Trump didn't need help appealing to far-right voters- he needs the moderate and anti-Hillary left-wing votes. All Pence is going to accomplish is drive those people into voting for Hillary or an independent.
Yes but some of the things Newt has said in regard to the most recent terror attack could of been problematic for Trump if he had hinted he'd go with him, right?
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Trump didn't need help appealing to far-right voters- he needs the moderate and anti-Hillary left-wing votes. All Pence is going to accomplish is drive those people into voting for Hillary or an independent.
You been wrong about everything else up until this point. Why should we believe you?
Originally posted by SurturYeah, they're both awful VP's.
Yes but some of the things Newt has said in regard to the most recent terror attack could of been problematic for Trump if he had hinted he'd go with him, right?
General rule of thumb for presidential candidates is to select people who shore up your weaknesses or appeal to a demographic that you don't. Biden, for example, was picked because being too young and not having enough experience in the political climate was a major criticism of Obama during the election.
The only demographic Pence appeals to are far-right voters, and "he's not far-right enough" has never really been a criticism of Trump.
Like I said, he will only drive away liberal voters.
That's the thing. I've considered Trump. Several of his policies like cutting off Saudi Arabia, and preserving Medicaid (apparently even Obama thanked Mike Pence for expanding Medicaid) and Social Security are good. Honestly his Mexican wall plan is so ridiculous that I'm not even worried about it even possibly happening. As far as getting jobs back here from China and Mexico, with how much he profits from outsourcing, I just don't see him following through with it.
But four things put me off:
His Muslim ban (well now he says banning immigrants from terror states, but that still means banning the Syria refugees and leaving them to get slaughtered, which, for reasons I greatly explained in the other thread, will help ISIS enormously and potentially cause chaos here)
His foreign policy for killing ISIS, which essentially just consists of more airstrikes, which we've seen for the past few years doesn't do shit but cause collateral damage which in turn ups ISIS recruitment. Now as a positive he does call for 30,000 troops on the ground, but his familicidal talk of "taking out their families" is essentially an outright war crime. And as I pointed out, as a result of the Refugee Ban, we will get zero regional support, so there will be A LOT of US troop casualties both from ISIS and Shiites angry that we left them there to die. It will be chaos over there that will make the 2003 Iraq invasion look like a school fight. If he wasn't proposing a refugee ban it would be different, but that ban will have consequences on the battlefield.
His dislike of universal healthcare. As somebody who has a mother with cerebral palsy which essentially renders her near-quadriplegic, and having watched several loved ones suffer because they couldn't afford medication, including a woman with CPS (Chronic pain syndrome, aka the suicide disease because it is that painful) who had to sell her pet birds to afford medication, I think healthcare is an inherent human right that should be provided regardless of money. I find the idea of privatised healthcare darwinistically Randian.
And now this. As I stated in the other thread, I have a gay brother, so I can't possibly support somebody like Pence who put so much effort into denying LGBT rights. He did help expand Medicaid though, so that's a plus. But he will still be seen as undesirable by liberals for his homophobia.
So that's why I can't support him. Don't worry, I'm sure you could supply me with millions of articles detailing Hillary's corruption. Like I said, we liberals know she's corrupt. In an earlier thread I outright detailed how she created ISIS. So you don't have to tell me about how bad she is because you're preaching to the choir. But I'm just saying why I can't support Trump, at least until he changes his position on those 4 stances.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Yeah, they're both awful VP's.General rule of thumb for presidential candidates is to select people who shore up your weaknesses or appeal to a demographic that you don't. Biden, for example, was picked because being too young and not having enough experience in the political climate was a major criticism of Obama during the election.
The only demographic Pence appeals to are far-right voters, and "he's not far-right enough" has never really been a criticism of Trump.
If that's the general rule of thumb, I hope Clinton selects Warren. Would be hilarious to watch.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Yeah, they're both awful VP's.General rule of thumb for presidential candidates is to select people who shore up your weaknesses or appeal to a demographic that you don't. Biden, for example, was picked because being too young and not having enough experience in the political climate was a major criticism of Obama during the election.
The only demographic Pence appeals to are far-right voters, and "he's not far-right enough" has never really been a criticism of Trump.
You are advocating voting for a white collar criminal/ liar like Hilary then?
Originally posted by Lestov16
Like I said, he will only drive away liberal voters.That's the thing. I've considered Trump. Several of his policies like cutting off Saudi Arabia, and preserving Medicaid (apparently even Obama thanked Mike Pence for expanding Medicaid) and Social Security are good. Honestly his Mexican wall plan is so ridiculous that I'm not even worried about it even possibly happening. As far as getting jobs back here from China and Mexico, with how much he profits from outsourcing, I just don't see him following through with it.
But four things put me off:
His Muslim ban (well now he says banning immigrants from terror states, but that still means banning the Syria refugees and leaving them to get slaughtered, which, for reasons I greatly explained in the other thread, will help ISIS enormously and potentially cause chaos here)
His foreign policy for killing ISIS, which essentially just consists of more airstrikes, which we've seen for the past few years doesn't do shit but cause collateral damage which in turn ups ISIS recruitment. Now as a positive he does call for 30,000 troops on the ground, but his familicidal talk of "taking out their families" is essentially an outright war crime. And as I pointed out, as a result of the Refugee Ban, we will get zero regional support, so there will be A LOT of US troop casualties both from ISIS and Shiites angry that we left them there to die. It will be chaos over there that will make the 2003 Iraq invasion look like a school fight. If he wasn't proposing a refugee ban it would be different, but that ban will have consequences on the battlefield.
His dislike of universal healthcare. As somebody who has a mother with cerebral palsy which essentially renders her near-quadriplegic, and having watched several loved ones suffer because they couldn't afford medication, including a woman with CPS (Chronic pain syndrome, aka the suicide disease because it is that painful) who had to sell her pet birds to afford medication, I think healthcare is an inherent human right that should be provided regardless of money. I find the idea of privatised healthcare darwinistically Randian.
And now this. As I stated in the other thread, I have a gay brother, so I can't possibly support somebody like Pence who put so much effort into denying LGBT rights. He did help expand Medicaid though, so that's a plus. But he will still be seen as undesirable by liberals for his homophobia.
So that's why I can't support him. Don't worry, I'm sure you could supply me with millions of articles detailing Hillary's corruption. Like I said, we liberals know she's corrupt. In an earlier thread I outright detailed how she created ISIS. So you don't have to tell me about how bad she is because you're preaching to the choir. But I'm just saying why I can't support Trump, at least until he changes his position on those 4 stances.
I believe after Orlando, Trump stood up for the LGBT more then any liberal in existence.
Originally posted by Lestov16
I know how Hillary works. I also know how Trump work. You really think he wants to take down the corrupt system that makes him billions? His factories are outsourced to China and Mexico. You really think Trump, the epitome of capitalism, is going to sacrifice his profit like that? He's playing you guys.At least liberals know how corrupt Hillary is. You guys don't understand your man Trump at all.
Trump changed.
Hilary gets worse.
You are going to vote for a person that helped create isis, 40 years of pay to play politics, negligence, both her and her husband now have lied under oath.
What else is there to say?
Originally posted by Lestov16His foreign policy for killing ISIS, which essentially just consists of more airstrikes, which we've seen for the past few years doesn't do shit but cause collateral damage which in turn ups ISIS recruitment. Now as a positive he does call for 30,000 troops on the ground, but his familicidal talk of "taking out their families" is essentially an outright war crime. And as I pointed out, as a result of the Refugee Ban, we will get zero regional support, so there will be A LOT of US troop casualties both from ISIS and Shiites angry that we left them there to die. It will be chaos over there that will make the 2003 Iraq invasion look like a school fight. If he wasn't proposing a refugee ban it would be different, but that ban will have consequences on the battlefield.
Trump said he wanted troops on ground in the ISIS fight? If so that's awesome. I feel we should have never left Iraq. We should have done the exact same thing we did to Japan after WW2 and pumped all that black gold over here to the states. I agree with you that we will be the only ones there but if u remember 2003 there was relatively small contingents of forces from other countries. If we were to go balls deep in the middle east Wed need AT LEAST a corps sized element plus...something like 500 thousand troops with massive armored, air and naval support.
It would be awesome.... if his refugee ban didn't lose us all regional support, leaving us to fight ISIS without the help of the Kurds, Turks, Iraqis, or Syrians, who will more than likely also be trying to kill us in revenge for banning them. Meaning the entire region of millions will be slaughtering our troops.
That refugee ban is going to phuck up EVERYTHING. It will be Christmas for ISIS.
Originally posted by Lestov16
It would be awesome.... if his refugee ban didn't lose us all regional support, leaving us to fight ISIS without the help of the Kurds, Turks, Iraqis, or Syrians, who will more than likely also be trying to kill us in revenge for banning them. Meaning the entire region of millions will be slaughtering our troops.That refugee ban is going to phuck up EVERYTHING. It will be Christmas for ISIS.
Im not so sure. Yes it's a potential. But let's say he did something (hypothetically) like paid wages to men of fighting age on that country to fight back? As well as set up government based on the bathe party where military had prime cut of real estate etc as long as they played fair? That way we could garnerva sort of nationalistic pride AND have support so us troops dont do all the fighting. In any event like any recent war the us will be doing all the heavy lifting. But set up a propaganda machine that made it seem like the locals were rallying and being the heroes and we were solely support.
Originally posted by Lestov16
It's the locals who will be killing US troops in revenge for banning them from the U.S. and thus leaving them in ISIS' hands. We will be getting attacked on all sides.If refugees weren't being banned here, a ground invasion there would be far, far easier.
You think that's the key? Im not so sure. I believe national pride can be instilled if only the right government was erected