He was in obvious pain-and he was feeding on it
You do realise the first rule of Jacen solo is that he amps himself off pain Beni, something that has been established since traitor
edit : And lol, no, she stopped herself meaning Jacen had her off guard for a split second, but couldn't move her any further.
You need to clarify that Jacen would be weaker considering the pain amplifier, seen as you can not do that there's no reason to assume he was. So far you have shown me that he was unable to rag doll Jaina when she fought back, there is also a point where she broke his Force choke in the book, indicating that a valid attempt to resist Caedus' attacks will work.
Originally posted by ZiggystardustNo, rather you need to explain why this "pain amplifier" would be somehow sufficient not only to nullify is crippling injuries, but make him more powerful as well. "Conventional wisdom" as you'd put it, tell's us that he'd not be at full strength after suffering mortal wounds, which he had to divert energy to manage. The fact he achieved it with such nonchalant ease making it more irrelevant a point besides.
You need to clarify that Jacen would be weaker consider the pain amplifier, seen as you can not do that there's no reason to assume he was.
So far you have shown me that he was unable to rag doll Jaina when she fought back, there is also a point where she broke his Force choke in the book, indicating that a valid attempt to resist Caedus' attacks will work.He was unable to maintain a complete hold of her correct, but cases in which a Force user is able to do so is rare, and in that regard the best Dooku has managed is ****ing Tiplee. Lmao.
And I'd appreciate an extract and contexts regarding that instance your referring to. The fact that it took all her strength to break his hold suggests she was at her limits.
Beni, I appreciate you trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but please remember that Jaina herself was exhausted, and unlike Jacen is unable to amp herself from every injury she recieves.
Jaina almost wished that she had been knocked unconscious. Stinging needle-thrusts of pain zippered down her spine as her vertebrae rocked beneath the impact, and the synthmesh supporting her half-healed ribs came apart in a single agonizing pop. She dropped to the floor, fighting to keep her pain from carrying her down into numb oblivion, gazing back to where she had surprised Caedus:where Caedus still stood in the doorway, his mouth gaping in surprise, with a thumb-sized scorch hole just below his ribs. But he was still standing.- Invincible
So you have shown me that Caedus is unable to rag doll his weakened sister, while he may or may not be weekend himself. Can we get a feat that isn't debunked? So i ask you again, show me force feats of Caedus that are better than rag dolling Obi Wan while fighting Anakin Skywalker in his prime, killing Ventress or hurling huge 75 meter ships.
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.
And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.
Add in this feat...
Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.
-Legacy of the Force: Revelation
...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.
That's my view on it.
Originally posted by ZiggystardustThat's not an indication of exhaustion lol, rather pain threatening to shut down her body. She had done nothing at that point to warrant fatigue. (That said, almost KO'ing Jaina with a single attack is also a superior feat to anything Dooku has managed.)
Beni, I appreciate you trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but please remember that Jaina herself was exhausted, and unlike Jacen is unable to amp herself from every injury she recieves.So you have shown me that Caedus is [b]unable
to rag doll his weakened sister, while he may or may not be weekend himself. Can we get a feat that isn't debunked? So i ask you again, show me force feats of Caedus that are better than rag dolling Obi Wan while fighting Anakin Skywalker in his prime, killing Ventress or hurling huge 75 meter ships. [/B]
On the other hand:
Caedus tried to turn to meet her, but only staggered, his lightsaber falling to his side as though it were a cane. It wasn't, of course, and his momentum kept him stumbling back toward the bright side of the pit, his eyes filled with rage and exhaustion and despair.Case closed.
And though Dooku was able to grip Kenobi in RotS, the junior novelisation implies this is only a result of the element of surprise, and certainly he fails to do the same to him as he did to Tiplee in Son of Dathomir. Begging the question of whether Kenobi wouldn't be able to break free of the Count's telekinetic hold either if given the opportunity.
Certainly nothing Dooku has done suggests he could even break the barriers of someone of Jaina's calibre with the first place, let alone under Caedus' circumstances. So I'll stick with this as my evidence thanks.
Oh and if we are going to nitpick further? I've yet to see any proof that Dooku could perform his ship feat off of a nexus. I'll wait.
EDIT: His ability to kill Ventress hardly even worth mentioning, considering Ventress has suffered crippling injuries beforehand.
Originally posted by AzrongerShould be noted that Jaina was only able to break his hold over Mirta using shatterpoint.
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.
Add in this feat...
Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.
-Legacy of the Force: Revelation
...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.
That's my view on it.
Originally posted by Azronger
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.
Add in this feat...
Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.
-Legacy of the Force: Revelation
...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.
That's my view on it.
Originally posted by Azronger
Caedus amps himself off of pain, yes, but it is also noted in the text he had to use a lot of energy to keep himself alive, so the way I see it is that it balances out.And then we must consider other factors like Caedus not using gestures and Jaina being exhausted, which also balance out.
Add in this feat...
Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut.
-Legacy of the Force: Revelation
...and it's pretty clear Caedus isn't ragdolling Jaina. Although it should be noted resisiting it took Jaina to her limits, both times.
That's my view on it.
Completely agree with, and Beni lol Jaina was very obviously both in pain and exhausted - wanting to become unconscious and fighting to keep the pain carrying her down into a numb oblivion. That trauma and stress to your body will certainly have a toll on her abilties, and unlike Jacen, she isn't able to amp herself. It's a simple premise, just like ben Kenobi being a shadow of his former self in a new hope, both are very obviously rooted in the text and have little reason for you to deny them. Case closed. Jacen can't ragdoll Jaina.
Anyway, so far you have managed to prove one thing, Jacen is stronger than his sister, which no one is denying. However, her ability is in question given that she herself admits that many of the council members are more proficient than her in a fight, them not disagreeing with her either.
And yeah, Dooku managed to win a direct mano-e-mano Force contest with the most powerful Jedi ever. Caedus failing to ragdoll Jaina on various occasions doesn't compare.
It's also worth noting that wether or not Kenobi was caught "off -gaurd" is unimportant, the text in Invincible is written from Jaina's perspective and lets us know that she very clearly wasn't expecting a Force attack. The difference is that she was able to resist it, where Kenobi did not. So the difference between Dooku an Jacen is that The Count actually incapacitates his foes when using the Force while everyone one and their mothers has a shot at resisting the almighty Caedus.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And though Dooku was able to grip Kenobi in RotS, the junior novelisation implies this is only a result of the element of surprise, and certainly he fails to do the same to him as he did to Tiplee in Son of Dathomir. Begging the question of whether Kenobi wouldn't be able to break free of the Count's telekinetic hold either if given the opportunity.
So Dooku can't treat Kenobi as utter fodder with the Force? That's nice. All you've proven is that Obi-Wan
Dooku still choked him, and the junior novelisation is vague about the subject if Obi can counter instantly or not, it just notes he gathered the energies to counter. If you give a Force user enough time to dwell into and soak up his power in the Force, then they can counter superior telekinetics(look at Kas'im vs Bane, or Jaina breaking Jacen's choke as examples).
All this proves is Kenobi needs to gather a notable amount of energy to counter an easy sweep attack from Dooku, still placing Obi in the ragdoll range for Tyranus.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Certainly nothing Dooku has done suggests he could even break the barriers of someone of Jaina's calibre with the first place, let alone under Caedus' circumstances. So I'll stick with this as my evidence thanks.
Dooku is certainly more powerful than Jaina, and can break her defenses, lmao. Obviously not to the same degree as dear Jacen, but he can still do it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh and if we are going to nitpick further? I've yet to see any proof that Dooku could perform his ship feat off of a nexus. I'll wait.
He's ragdolled Vos, who's dominated K'kruhk, who's manipulated ships, maybe? Also, the nexus was a rather pathetic one as per PoD and as per BoS only grew weaker.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
EDIT: His ability to kill Ventress hardly even worth mentioning, considering Ventress has suffered crippling injuries beforehand.
And Dooku suffered similar injury, and still would've killed Vos had Asajj not intervened.
Not arguing for Caedus vs Dooku since Caedus definitely takes it, but just thought I'd correct some jazz.
Originally posted by MythLordThat wasn't my point, no suprise you missed it since you've butted in to this argument at random. 🙂
So Dooku can't treat Kenobi as utter fodder with the Force? That's nice. All you've proven is that Obi-WanDooku still choked him, and the junior novelisation is vague about the subject if Obi can counter instantly or not, it just notes he gathered the energies to counter. If you give a Force user enough time to dwell into and soak up his power in the Force, then they can counter superior telekinetics(look at Kas'im vs Bane, or Jaina breaking Jacen's choke as examples).
All this proves is Kenobi needs to gather a notable amount of energy to counter an easy sweep attack from Dooku, still placing Obi in the ragdoll range for Tyranus.
Dooku is certainly more powerful than Jaina, and can break her defenses, lmao. Obviously not to the same degree as dear Jacen, but he can still do it.That's nice, but I'd appreciate more than just your opinion on the matter.
He's ragdolled Vos, who's dominated K'kruhk, who's manipulated ships, maybe? Also, the nexus was a rather pathetic one as per PoD and as per BoS only grew weaker.It wasn't pathetic, it was actually quite powerful.
And Dooku suffered similar injury, and still would've killed Vos had Asajj not intervened.But still managed to conjure far more powerful lightning than Vos had ever seen, and failed to kill Ventress under neutral circumstances. Not sure what proof you have Vos would have died.
Not arguing for Caedus vs Dooku since Caedus definitely takes it, but just thought I'd correct some jazz.Take your jazz elsewhere.
Originally posted by ZiggystardustThe pain would have weakened her sure, but there is no evidence she was exhausted, Jacen was and his injuries were far worse.
Completely agree with, and Beni lol Jaina was very obviously both in pain and exhausted - wanting to become unconscious and fighting to keep the pain carrying her down into a numb oblivion. That trauma and stress to your body will certainly have a toll on her abilties, and unlike Jacen, she isn't able to amp herself. It's a simple premise, just like ben Kenobi being a shadow of his former self in a new hope, both are very obviously rooted in the text and have little reason for you to deny them. Case closed. Jacen can't ragdoll Jaina.
Anyway, so far you have managed to prove one thing, Jacen is stronger than his sister, which no one is denying. However, her ability is in question given that she herself admits that many of the council members are more proficient than her in a fight, them not disagreeing with her either.Provide context, because in Apocalypse she is stated to be the combat equal of anyone in the Jedi Order.
And yeah, Dooku managed to win a direct mano-e-mano Force contest with the most powerful Jedi ever. Caedus failing to ragdoll Jaina on various occasions doesn't compare.